Border disorder: Why Capitol Hill lawmakers disagree on the US immigration crisis

TRANSCRIPT: Border disorder: Why Capitol Hill lawmakers disagree on the US immigration crisis

Zoe Lofgren:

I am not defending the current processes at the border. It has to change. And people who are critical of it are right, but to think that that's more important than the protection of democracy is simply wrong. If we lose our democracy, we don't have the capacity to deal with any of the other issues we face.

Ian Bremmer:

Hello, and welcome to the GGZERO World Podcast. This is where you'll find extended versions of my conversations on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer. And today we are diving into one of the hottest policy issues of the 2024 election; immigration. In December alone, US Border Patrols tallied a record high 250,000 arrests. That's up 13% from the previous record set in December 2022. Why have things gotten so bad? And what can be done to solve the crisis at the border? And why is a bipartisan bill aimed at addressing the problem sure to never become law? I'm joined by two US house members who serve on the immigration subcommittee. First, by Indiana Republican, Victoria Spartz. And later, by California Democrat, Zoe Lofgren. I spoke with Spartz and Lofgren moments before the Mayorkas's vote, which ultimately failed.

Speaker 3:

The GGZERO World Podcast is brought to you by our lead sponsor, Prologis. Prologis helps businesses across the globe scale their supply chains with an expansive portfolio of logistics real estate, and the only end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today. Learn more at prologis.com.

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Ian Bremmer:

Congresswoman Victoria Spartz, thanks so much for joining us on GGZERO World.

Victoria Spartz:

Thank you for having me.

Ian Bremmer:

So I want to start with some breaking news because in very short order, like in about an hour, you're going to cast your vote for impeachment or not of Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. Now I'm assuming you plan to vote for impeachment, but I don't know that for certain. Can you tell us, walk us through why you're going to vote the way you're going to vote?

Victoria Spartz:

Well, listen, I always believe that the ultimate responsibility always lays in the top executive. But I think as even head of agency, you actually give an oath to your office and if you don't believe you get the right orders from your top executive, you really should probably resign. And I think unfortunately what's happening in the border, it was a very conscious decision by Secretary Mayorkas and President Biden not to enforce the laws, which are a really significant national security risk. And I think we don't do it very often, but on these issues like that, it's considering how material it is, we really need to send a message in that we cannot allow executives not to do their duty to the public.

Ian Bremmer:

This would be the first cabinet secretary to be impeached in modern times. Are you just happy to be a part of history here?

Victoria Spartz:

I'm not getting excited about that. Unfortunately, that is not a very good situation. I'm actually very concerned seriously what's happening in the border. And I think, I hope it'll bring some message and actions from administration to do something. But I'm not sure if politics is going to be prevailing this year again, unfortunately.

Ian Bremmer:

Yeah, when it comes to the border, I think politics prevailing is one thing that we can be relatively certain on. Another thing to get you on the record, do you support the Senate's $118 plus billion bipartisan national security bill? I know 60 billion plus in Ukraine Aid, which I know you care about. There's $10 billion in Israeli and humanitarian aid. How do you feel about that piece of legislation?

Victoria Spartz:

I don't think that piece of legislation is really addressing important issues and strategies that we have to deal with. I don't think it's really addressing our border situation. It's just you put a lipstick on a pig, and I think it was President Obama who said that, it's still a pig. It's not really dealing with that. It's not really looking how can we better do better with our actions and strategy in the very serious when Ukraine that I've been very critical of president, but I try to really work with administration and I try to put pressure on them, as a lot of my colleagues on a bipartisan basis to really make sure that we can more deterrences and much faster and more agile in this war.

I don't think it's still given a lot of money without proper strategies. So I think these issues have to be discussed and also supporting our ally, Israel. I know it became politicized ever since now, and I think Senate right now just want to move something of the table that they can do messaging for their re-election campaigns. But this is all serious issues. So I'm not supporting in this form.

Ian Bremmer:

Given the fact we now see that Ukraine is on the verge of losing a city, Avdiivka, to the Russians the first time. We will have seen that since the Counteroffensive, which did not go well for the Ukrainians. I certainly know how you feel about the invasion. What do you think the Americans need to do and how can it be done quickly to help the Ukrainians defend themselves?

Victoria Spartz:

I think it's a very difficult situation now because unfortunately, we let Russia to be able to regroup. We let Russia now they put their industry in the military mode. They really dig in now and getting ready for very long war. And as you know, democracy in the West, it's much more known and having more agility and speed. We are much better and dictatorship and tyranny have a much more better strategy in the long run. So that's not our advantage. And I think we, unfortunately it was a missed opportunity for us to put pressure on Russia. Now it's going to be very difficult war and I think we have to now rethink, but I think it's very important to put pressure on Europeans too. And our strategy needs to be valid, very clear, but it also backed up with actions, not just talk. Because this is very serious war and as I said a couple of years ago, if we don't deal with it, we'll have more wars.

Unfortunately we'll have more wars, and if we don't deal we can have even more wars, and it's really going to stabilize the whole world and we'll be really dragged in very material wars and very serious situations. So I think we have to be smarter on this, but everyone is doing politics and no one wants to have a serious discussion, including president is not willing to talk to Congress and the House and the American people to really communicate the importance of this war and what's really happened and why it's important for us. We pushed Ukraine to give nuclear weapons and as you remember in early nineties, which was actually Ukraine was the third-largest country in the world, nuclear country, which was the right thing to do. But what are the implications of us not supporting Ukrainian in their fight? I think it would be significant for us.

Ian Bremmer:

So let's move on to the border and migration. I'm wondering, do you have a quick suggestion of what Congress needs to do right now in terms of the migrant crisis as well as the millions and millions of undocumented immigrants in the United States?

Victoria Spartz:

First of all, we need to deter cartels from taking advantage of the situation, using poor, desperate people, pretty much enslaving them, taking advantage of them to make a lot of money. And if we actually heighten our asylum standards to more likely than not, which is slightly more than 50%, it'll deter them from being abused in the system. Over 90% of asylum seekers are not legitimate asylum seekers and we have some legitimate that now could be killed by the government and they're not really being processed timely. We need to have better adjudication processes at the border, tighten parole authority that's actually been abused by president, and give more tools to border patrol.

Where people are not legitimate, they would not be just getting into the country, but also we'll have a process for people to wait for that. What we had before, Remain in Mexico policy, it was actually very good because if you know that you are legitimate, you'll stay in Mexico. But if you know that you're abusing the system, very likely you are not. So I think we need to give more actually tools to the border patrol and tighten the legal framework. It doesn't need to be very broad. And then we can talk about the funding, but unfortunately if we are not have more enforcement mechanism, all the money not go to the right places no matter how much money we're given right now.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, Biden administration hasn't been willing to really talk about this as a serious crisis until very recently. Trump of course most recently saying he doesn't want to see a deal come through, that it's a trap set by the Democrats the Republicans can't fall into. I mean, given that nature of politicization, is there any hope that we can get any movement, any movement at all from Congress on the border crisis that we're experiencing?

Victoria Spartz:

Well, unfortunately this issue now we get into campaign season is getting very hard, but I totally hope we'll still have a conversation. But I hate to tell you I haven't seen our institution governing, and we need to. We're independent branch of government. We really should do our job and oversee, regardless which administration, Republicans or Democrats. And we're not doing our job right now, but I don't think we want, like the other side wants to have a serious discussion right now. What they want to do, they want to pass something so they have talking points that they're doing something. Or knowing that probably we're not going to like what they're saying because it's really just not serious legislation and gives a lot of loopholes. They can attack us and say, "You see how bad Republicans, it's been politicized." We have wars politicized and crisis like border security politicized. I hate to say, but this institution is so broken and I have a very low expectation now.

Ian Bremmer:

So I mean, given all of that, I mean, I kind of understood why a year ago you said you didn't want to run again, but then in the last week you said you did. What changed your mind?

Victoria Spartz:

I must be, but I feel bad. I get some days when I feel like I'm one woman standing, but I truly understand how much was sacrificed for us as a republic and I grew up under tyranny and coming here as a young person, I have enormous appreciation what our Republic is about. And it's hard for me sometimes to look when I go in my district, I was giving medals to some veterans and some of them were truly crying. They feel no one cares about them, no one cares about the country. So I just thought, you know what? I cannot let republic down. I need to have a choice. We have too many people that run in for offices anymore to better themselves or have their personal agenda. And I think we need to have more people that willing to fight tough fights for the people and its heart in Washington DC. So I said I need to have people and God decide and ultimately I'd be happy with whatever decision they make.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, you did say in September you accused President Biden of playing politics with Ukraine aid and I understand why you said that. Is it also fair to say that Trump is playing politics with the border right now, given what's happening in the house and what he's said in the last few days publicly?

Victoria Spartz:

Well, listen, unfortunately, that's why I was trying to push a lot of issue. This year is going to be, generally everything will be consumed with politics, but I will take responsibility on President Biden because he is in charge. He's a top executive. President Trump is campaigning to be president, so I'll judge if he is the president. I think he really likely might be, and I think he needs to make his case. But ultimately, responsibility of executive regardless what it is actually to govern and he needs to be held accountable for that and not running for reelection or be afraid of that. He needs to do his duty to the people, and his duty should be working with Congress to be able to protect the American people. But right now, he getting so much pressure from his liberal side of his party that he's not willing even to deal with issues with some people in his own party complaining about. So I think that is very dangerous politics because he has an authority to make this border secure and he's not doing that.

Ian Bremmer:

You're right, campaigning is a lot easier. No question about that. But Congresswoman Victoria Spartz, I want to thank you so much for joining us today.

Victoria Spartz:

Thank you for having me.

Ian Bremmer:

And now to my conversation with former Chair of the House, Judiciary Immigration and Citizenship Subcommittee, California Representative Zoe Lofgren. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thanks so much for joining us today.

Zoe Lofgren:

You bet.

Ian Bremmer:

First I just want to give you my best wishes for, I know there's a lot of flooding going on in your district right now and I hope that everybody's okay and getting through it.

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, it's torrential rain. So far, we have escaped serious flooding. We're hoping that continues. We've had a lot of trees down and power outages, but hopefully we won't have a repeat of last year's severe flooding. Some of the emergency repairs we did seem to be holding so far.

Ian Bremmer:

Well, I want to talk to you about the policy that's going on right now, and I know that in very short order you're going to cast your vote in the house impeachment of Homeland Security Secretary Mayorkas. I assume it's safe for me to assume that you're going to vote against. I'm wondering if you could tell me what this says about the priorities of the House right now.

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, the House Republicans are known as the Chaos Caucus. They can't really do anything. Impeaching Mayorkas, I think it would be the only second time in history that a cabinet officer was impeached, if they can get the votes. And there's no basis for it. As you know, the basis for impeachment is treason, bribery or high crime and misdemeanor. I've been a participant in quite a number of impeachments and I actually have on my website a report done during the Nixon administration when I was on staff that goes through the history of the impeachment clause, what it means, what is a high crime and misdemeanor. Even if the Republicans don't like Mayorkas, it has nothing to do with meeting the constitutional standards. It's a complete waste of time.

Ian Bremmer:

So can we say impeachment is kind of broken as a process now for the Congress as a check on executive power?

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, I don't know. I mean, the Senate clearly is not going to take this up. They know it's just a sham. I would hope that if we have an officer of the United States that has committed treason, bribery or a high crime and misdemeanor, that we could respond in an appropriate way, not only impeaching but convicting. So we'll see.

Ian Bremmer:

Well, we haven't seen that in recent times, so I'll just throw that out there.

Zoe Lofgren:

Or ever, actually. Even Johnson was not convicted.

Ian Bremmer:

Indeed, indeed. So in terms of bills that are working their way through Congress, if this bipartisan support $118 billion for Ukraine, for the border deal, for Israel, reaches the house floor, as unlikely as that seems, will you support it?

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, it's not going to. I mean, it's just blown up in the Senate, so we're back to ground GZERO. We have an urgent need for funding for Ukraine. I mean, urgent. And if we don't, we will, I believe, be seeing American troops fighting Russian troops in Europe. This is totally irresponsible. I think I look at some of my colleagues and it's like the communist wing of the Russian, of the Republican Party. They're ditching Taiwan to China, ditching Ukraine to the Russians. I mean, it's really unbelievable.

Ian Bremmer:

You have a lot of expertise on immigration and you've just made an impassioned call for money for Ukraine. I mean, what kind of a bill do you want to see? What do you think needs to happen on these two issues? Should they be brought together? I mean, given the fact that different parties are calling for different things here.

Zoe Lofgren:

There's no reason to have them together. But having said that, I think there is a need for changes in asylum. The immigration system is broken and that includes the current asylum system. It was a situation and legal structure that worked at one time, but it is no longer working effectively and we need change. I mean, when you look at it, we've got some around 4 million backlog cases in immigration court. It was intentional that we have a wide net for people seeking asylum and then we would sort it out promptly after that in immigration court. The problem is that that can't happen now. So you've got people who are meeting a lower threshold for possibility of asylum who will be admitted for a hearing that will maybe never happen. So we've got to change the way we're doing this. This is not working.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, you're talking about one in a hundred people that are basically living on the territory of the United States right now that are in limbo in terms of legal status that are sort of working their way through or not, this process. That sounds pretty urgent, pretty dire.

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, there are problems throughout. I mean, it's not just that the asylum system needs reform. And we've got people married to American citizens, they should be getting their legal permanent residence, and they can't get it. That doesn't make any sense, including sons and daughters of American citizens that can't get their legal residence. That doesn't make any sense. We've got hot shot AI researchers with post-doctorate degrees from fancy American universities that can't get their residence, they have to go to Canada. So the whole thing is a mess. It needs to be reformed and we need to do it all at once or piece by piece, but right of course now, we're faced with the disorder at the border and the need to bring some order to that situation.

Ian Bremmer:

We've got issues here.

Zoe Lofgren:

Yep.

Ian Bremmer:

What about Central America? I mean, obviously in part this crisis is coming from three countries that are not able to provide basic living standards for their people. The United States has had limited success in trying to bring stability and economic wellbeing. Are there any suggestions you have for what else the US should be doing there?

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, the US should be working with other countries in the Western Hemisphere, it's not just us, to strengthen those three Central American countries. But it's worth pointing out that the asylum seekers are no longer just from those three Central American countries. We've got rich people, people rich enough to buy an air ticket, coming from China, coming from the Middle East, coming from Africa, making claims for asylum that may or may not be valid, entering the United States without ever having a hearing. So it's a broken system. I do think the standards for asylum aren't that you're miserable at home. It's that you are being persecuted on the basis of your status, your religion or your political views. It can't just be that things are bad at home. That's not what asylum is.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, I've watched for the last few months in Senate as Democrats and Republicans spent an awful lot of time arm-twisting to try to get to a place where some of these issues could be addressed, at least patched over. Is it Trump jumping in and saying, "I refuse to accept a border deal"? Is that what killed this? Or is it-

Zoe Lofgren:

Yes, it's clearly that's what killed it. And Trump wants a political issue. He doesn't want a solution. And some of my Republican colleagues basically said that out front. They don't want to solve this problem. They want to have it as a political issue. How shameful.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, there is a small number of minority of Republicans on the right that are holding the Speaker of the House hostage and are clearly acting as chaos agents. But I mean, I assume there are also an awful lot of representatives, Republican representatives of districts that aren't so different from you that would just like to see a solution. Tell me what your conversations with the rank-and-file are like.

Zoe Lofgren:

I think the rank-and-file are supporting Mike Johnson, and Mike Johnson is doing whatever Trump says, so they can't escape responsibility.

Ian Bremmer:

Any difference that you've noticed between Speaker Johnson and Speaker McCarthy in terms of how they're conducting the business of the House?

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, certainly Johnson is less experienced. He's more overtly kowtowing to Trump, but he's cozying up to the right-wing base and to the detriment of the best interest of the United States. Pretty sad.

Ian Bremmer:

So I mean, even privately you're not seeing an awful lot of regret, sympathy, efforts to see if there's anything that can be done?

Zoe Lofgren:

I talked just a short while ago to a Republican member, and we discussed the lack of Ukraine funding and agreed that if we don't do something that Russia will be emboldened and ultimately we will have a American troops fighting Russian troops in Europe. That's pretty dire. We all see it, and yet we're not getting the funding necessary. They're running out of ammunition.

Ian Bremmer:

It is certainly true the Ukrainians are running out of ammunition. Indeed, they're losing a city right now, Avdiivka, to a Russian advance. It's very clear that they can't defend themselves the way they could when the Americans were leading the charge and providing them support. But you've brought up twice now this idea that the Americans are going to be fighting Russia if there's no support. That's a bold claim.

Zoe Lofgren:

Here's the concern. If Putin sees that he can get away with this, we all believe he's going to next or soon invade a NATO country, and then we have a treaty obligation, just as they do to us, to defend. And that's, unless we want to blow up the world order that has kept democracy safe since World War II, we're going to have an obligation to fight them. And it's the height of irresponsibility for the American Congress to allow that to occur. It's unbelievable. I just keep thinking what has happened to the Republicans? Why are they cozying up to the Communists? And it's not just Russia. They're about to ditch Taiwan to China. There was funding for Taiwan in this package, and they're going to let Taiwan be adrift and vulnerable to communist China. A party that used to be defined by Ronald Reagan fighting communism, they are now helping communists. It's unbelievable.

Ian Bremmer:

Is there still a hope, I mean, because we've got, coming up in March, we still need to fund the government ongoing. Is there a hope that the Senate just jams the house, they throw a whole bunch of this, including maybe a tax bill on top of funding, and if the Republicans don't accept it, then they're responsible for shutting down the government? Is that still kind of a possibility hanging out there? Or do you no longer hold out hope for that?

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, I live on hope. I couldn't be in this job if I didn't have hope. But I'll tell you what's concerning is that the Senate radicals have taken up the same cause as the Chaos Caucus over here on the House side. We sent a bill with a huge overwhelming vote, the tax bill. And now they're saying, "Well, we don't really want a solution. We want an argument for the election." It was Republicans in the Senate as well as the House who said they wanted an immigration deal in order to do funding for Ukraine. And of course, now they can't take yes or an answer. So I don't know where they are. I would hope that grownups in both bodies would step forward and do the right thing, but we'll see.

Ian Bremmer:

And what do you say to those Americans that now are saying that the border issue is actually the number one issue out there? It's not democracy, it's not the state of the economy. It is the border. How do you respond to them?

Zoe Lofgren:

Well, I'll say this. I am not defending the current processes at the border. It has to change, and people who are critical of it are right. I think we need to take some additional steps, which I've been suggesting to the administration to bring order to the border, but to think that that's more important than the protection of democracy is simply wrong. If we lose our democracy, we don't have the capacity to deal with any of the other issues we face.

Ian Bremmer:

Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thanks so much for joining us.

Zoe Lofgren:

Thank you.

Ian Bremmer:

That's it for today's edition of the GGZERO World Podcast. Do you like what you heard? Of course you did. Why don't you check us out at GGZEROmedia.com and take a moment to sign up for our newsletter? It's called GGZERO Daily.

Speaker 3:

The GGZERO World Podcast is brought to you by our lead sponsor, Prologis. Prologis helps businesses across the globe scale their supply chains with an expansive portfolio of logistics, real estate, and the only end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today. Learn more at Prologis.com.

This podcast is also brought to you by the feature film, One Life. One Life tells the incredible true story of Nicholas Nicky Winton, a young man who helped rescue hundreds of predominantly Jewish children from Czechoslovakia in a race against time before Nazi occupation closed the borders on the verge of World War II. 50 years later, Nicky, played by Sir Anthony Hopkins, is haunted by the fate of those he wasn't able to bring to safety. Also starring Helena Bonham Carter and Jonathan Pryce, Variety calls One Life, "Stirring, a testament to the power of good." And The Daily Beast says, "Hopkins gives a stunning performance." Only in theaters, March 15th.

GGZERO World would also like to share a message from our friends at Foreign Policy. Global Reboot, a podcast from Foreign Policy Magazine, was created as countries and economies emerged from the pandemic and called for a reboot. On each episode, host and foreign policy editor-in-chief Ravi Agrawal asked some of the smartest thinkers and doers around to push for solutions to the world's greatest problems. From resetting the US-China relationship to dealing with the rise of AI and preserving our oceans, find Global Reboot, in partnership with the Doha Forum, wherever you get your podcasts.