Podcast: How healthy is the US-Canada relationship?

TRANSCRIPT: How healthy is the US-Canada relationship?

Kirsten Hillman:

I don't think Canadians appreciate the extent to which we are vital to Americans. And I would like to see that.

David Cohen:

The central element of the US-Canada relationship is how close the relationship is, how important it is, and how much of a two-way relationship it is.

Anita Anand:

The global environment has changed. We are seeing the world become increasingly dark.

Ian Bremmer:

Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. This is where you'll find extended versions of my interviews on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer, and on today's episode, I'm taking GZERO north of the border to look at the most important trade relationship for the US. An increasingly important geopolitical one too. Canada. Yes, Canada is a lot more than maple syrup, ice hockey and poutine. Our friendly neighbor to the north is America's biggest trading partner. Not China, not Mexico, no, Canada. And we share the world's longest international border undefended. Here in Toronto, I'm talking with both countries' ambassadors, David Cohen and Kirsten Hillman about all the things that bring us together and some of the things that bring us apart. And later, remember the Chinese spy balloon? Hell you do. Canada's defense minister Anita Anand sure does too. And I'll talk with her about all that hot air, the Indo-Pacific and North American defense. Let's get into it.

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Ian Bremmer:

Ambassadors, Cohen, Hillman, thank you so much for joining me today.

Kirsten Hillman:

It's great to be here.

David Cohen:

Thanks for having us on.

Ian Bremmer:

A friendly relationship. No question. 9 out of 10 Americans and Canadians feel like there's a strong alliance between the US and Canada, but I want to start with trajectory. About a third of Canadians say that they fear the relationship is deteriorating. Almost 20% of Americans feel the same way. I'm wondering why you think there is that perspective in a relationship that frankly is about as integrated as one could have between two G20, G7 countries?

Kirsten Hillman:

Well, I'll be honest, I don't know where that perception would come from. I think that it may be a sign of just malaise generally. Right now post COVID, I find Canadians, Americans and others are still feeling like they're not quite back to the optimism and the energy that we saw before the pandemic. There's a lot of really challenging things happening in the world and we see it with the 24 hour news cycle all the time. And I think that maybe there's a sense that we haven't been able to communicate well enough to Canadians. I speak for Canadians, maybe Americans too, that this partnership is going to be now and into the future a source of strength for both of us to get through these troubled times. I think that that's what we need to get out there more. And perhaps people focus on small things instead of the big picture. And the big picture is, there's no two countries that are sort of more integrated, as you say, but more there for each other than Canada and US. And I think the visit recently just underlined that.

Ian Bremmer:

We did have a visit. It was Biden's first here given COVID, right? Not a surprise.

David Cohen:

First in-person.

Ian Bremmer:

First in-person. It was very friendly. It was very strong what needed to happen, what did Biden need to accomplish when he was here?

David Cohen:

So I think what the president needed to accomplish is exactly what he did accomplish. And it's really to reinforce what Kirsten just said, which is how important Canada is to the US-Canada relationship. There's so much talk in Canada about Canada being the junior partner of this relationship. As I've traveled the country, I've observed, I almost think Canadians have an inferiority complex sometimes when it comes to the United States. And I think that's not true and it's not fair. And I think only the president could come here and make crystal clear how important Canada is to the United States in this relationship. He put it this way in 2021, but I was glad to hear him say it three or four times. The United States simply has no better, stronger, more important friend, partner, or ally than Canada. And he needed to deliver that message because I think that is the central element of the US-Canada relationship is, how close the relationship is, how important it is and how much of a two-way relationship it is.

Ian Bremmer:

A lot of big issues that are being discussed. Some of them have bilateral tensions, some of them in the global context. The Inflation Reduction Act was really interesting to me, right? Because here's one that when I saw Ursula von der Leyen from the European Commission come to Washington, there had been a lot of tension about are the Americans doing industrial policy that we don't like? Are we competing? There's a lot of effort there. It felt like the Canadians had a better understanding of where the US was coming from, more coordinated, also more in advance. Am I right in saying that? And if so, why am I right in saying that?

Kirsten Hillman:

I think you are right in saying that, and I think you're right in saying that because of where Canada's been since 2015, we have had some fairly clear foundational investments into the green economy, into energy transformation. And we've been building on those year on year. When the IRA came in, it obviously got our attention obvious in a very positive way in that Canada and Mexico were carved into a major feature of that legislation which had to do with the electrification of vehicles, critical minerals and the production of EV batteries, which is a recognition of the integration of our auto sector and our three economies. So that's a huge-

Ian Bremmer:

Big investment's happening in all three countries-

Kirsten Hillman:

Big investments happening everywhere. And it has secured the future of the North American auto sector, because the future is electrification, so excellent. Now with respect to the other investments that are coming out of the IRA, there's no question that it also got Canadian's attention and there was some concerns around competitiveness. Was the suite of tools that we had as a government sufficient to make sure that we attracted and maintained investments in these technologies, in these areas that we have been trying to prioritize, as I say, since 2015. Last week in our budget, our government addressed some of that-

Ian Bremmer:

In a green budget.

Kirsten Hillman:

In a very green budget, a green budget that again recognizes that our suite of tools are slightly different. We have a price on carbon, we have market based solutions that are already in place and are the source of certain investments and reinvestments, but there are tax credits in there and other tools to complement that. And there is also a really strong emphasis on Canada's value proposition, which has to do with the resources that we have, the expertise that we have, not only in extracting and processing the resources, but the technology around greening all areas of our energy relationship. So I think that for us it's a different opportunity. I think the last thing I would say too is, there is no question I spent my whole life practically dealing with Canada-US economic relations and when the US does well and when it focuses on certain areas of the economy, we necessarily do well in Canada, we get opportunities in the United States and we get opportunities in Canada.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, one of the Trump administration's biggest successes in foreign policy was USMCA. When we talk about industrial policy, we usually talk about protectionism. We usually talk about support of a domestic industry. Is it fair that between USMCA and now IRA, that industrial policy really equates to the North American integrated economy? Does the Biden administration see it that way? Or is it first and foremost about American jobs and then we have to pay attention to Canada and Mexico?

David Cohen:

So when I hear the word protectionism under the Biden-Harris administration, I bristle a little bit, because it's different than it was in the prior administration, which had an expressly protectionist approach to foreign trade and to foreign relations. That's not Joe Biden. And I think he demonstrated that time and again during the visit to Canada, he very much subscribes to the view, if you will, "a rising tide lifts all boats" view, that when the United States invests, Canada will benefit and Mexico will benefit as well. And he does bring a North American perspective to the table. We also start from a fundamental value proposition that is unlike the value proposition that exists with any other country in the world, and that is two and a half billion dollars a day in trade between Canada and the United States, three point quarter billion a day in Canadian dollars, that's with whatever Buy American policies are in place.

You still have this enormous baseline. And I thought Kirsten was going to mention this, you've also got a 10-year plus track record that although yes, the United States is going to want to prioritize the creation of American jobs and American business, there is always been a way that Canada and the United States have figured out to make sure that Canada benefits from those programs, that the rising tide is lifting all boats, particularly boats in Canada. And although we haven't quite figured out all the pieces of that yet, I think there's a lot of optimism that that's what we're going to see. So in the joint statement from the visit, take something which isn't the IRA, but take the Defense Production Act and included in that was a commitment for 50 million dollars in US dollars going to Canadian companies to help stimulate critical minerals. So there's a demonstrated history track record and willingness to use even US dollars in these types of programs to benefit Canadian businesses.

Ian Bremmer:

Well, I mean go back to you. That was a very soft bristle that you offered me, by the way. I mean my teeth were not abraded by that bristle.

David Cohen:

I didn't mean them to be abraded.

Ian Bremmer:

But 3, 5, 10 years ago, the protectionist impulse was not just something that the Canadians were talking about in the US, I always think about software lumber and I think about infant formula and the Americans were saying the same thing about Canada. And I'm wondering, is it because the global environment is so much more dangerous, more concerning, that national security has become more of a driver? That what we're seeing is the strategic elements of the economic relationship between the US and Canada are just becoming so much more front and center compared to the kind of things that used to drive a fight between the Americans and Canadians.

David Cohen:

So I think the answer to that is a partial yes. I wasn't talking about 3, 5 and 10 years ago. I was talking about the Biden-Harris administration, which is two years. And part of it is definitely that we have become more interconnected globally and certainly in North America we've become more interconnected and there's a greater understanding that our futures are tied to each other. So there's no doubt about that. But part of it is philosophical as well. And this president, as he demonstrated through his visit to Canada, has signed up to be part of Team Canada-US. That's the way he views the United States place in the world. And that is not necessarily the same way that his predecessors have viewed the relationship between our two countries. So you tie the two of those things together and I think you have a very different flavor of what something like the Inflation Reduction Act means and looks like, what Defense Production Act funding means and looks like and what the integrated and combined efforts around climate change, energy transformation and how you use governmental tax incentives to advance the ball in those critical areas.

Ian Bremmer:

So Kirsten, when you and I sit down, we talk a lot about Asia-Pacific. We talk a lot about China in the context of three, five years ago where there was a lot of conversation in Canada about how much do we want to be aligned with the US on China and how much we want to be taking a slightly different path. The Biden-Trudeau meeting certainly seemed as if there was no daylight between the US and Canada on China, at a time when US-Chinese relations are at the worst we've seen in quite some time now, I'm sure some of that is about the experience with the two Michaels and some of that is about alignment on critical minerals in Huawei. But am I right? I mean because there's daylight between the Americans and many of the Europeans on China, very clearly. Is Canada really almost a hundred percent with the US on China orientation?

Kirsten Hillman:

What I would say is this, Canadians have had an experience over the last number of years with the detention, unlawful detention of the Michaels in China. That has changed public perception of that country and I think of our relationship with that country. But that being said, it's still a country that is recognized as obviously a very important player in the world. And so we're going to have to find ways to work with them in a variety of areas, including on climate change and including on, we hosted for them the Biodiversity Convention in the late last year, because of the COVID policies, they couldn't have it there. So we are keen to try to have lines of communication where we can on issues where we need to work together. But I think it's fair to say that when it comes to human rights violations, when it comes to national security issues, we are feeling like we need to make sure that we are as closely aligned as we can be with our key partners and the US is primary among them.

Ian Bremmer:

And from a foreign policy perspective, would you say this is the biggest thing that concerns you in your portfolio in terms of where Canadian relations are going forward?

Kirsten Hillman:

With the United States?

Ian Bremmer:

Yeah, about what's going to happen with the Chinese?

Kirsten Hillman:

I would say it's something that we talk about a lot. We had a really great session just before the presidential visit between the prime minister's national security and intelligence advisor and Kurt Campbell at the White House, like seven hours.

Ian Bremmer:

The Asia csar and the White House.

Kirsten Hillman:

Yeah, exactly, the Asia csar. So we had a seven hour extravaganza with all of our agencies there from national security and intelligence to foreign affairs to development to economics. And what was really interesting in sitting in on that whole discussion is that there are different solutions for different areas. Our economic views of how to proceed not just in China but in the Indo-Pacific region is very aligned. How we're going to help countries in the region is very aligned. What we feel like we need to be thinking about when it comes to national security and intelligence is very aligned. So I think that with the US and with other partners, but with the US, we'll be looking to find ways to implement our Indo-Pacific strategy that's either complimentary or in coordination. It just depends on the initiative. But yeah, it's fair to say that we work a lot on this and it's very important to us. And the leaders spoke about it among many other things or a lot of other challenging issues in the world as well. But it's a very important topic for us.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, Canada and the United States have both experienced a lot more political division at home over the past few years. Some decentralization, feeling like provinces or states are moving in very different directions. As the smaller economy, the economy, that it gets overwhelmed in some ways with American media and trade and the rest. Have you felt that there is an export of division from the United States to Canada? So many people say when the US sneezes, the Canadians catch a cold. Is there some of that going on right now?

Kirsten Hillman:

I think it's really hard to say. I will come back to my perception that our society is still recovering from the challenges of the pandemic and how that affected people's lives, how it affected their economic lives, their family lives, their mental health, their sense of sort of community. I think that had an important and wide ranging impact. I think that that has contributed to tensions in our societies. Canadians certainly consume American media, the French Canadian society consumes French media from France. We consume a variety of different medias and I think that we are seeing across the globe, at least in the medias that our Canadians are consuming, that kind of sense of unease and maybe a little bit of feeling of unsettled-ness is a bit everywhere.

Ian Bremmer:

That explosion of division and polarization coming from French media as well has been very significant. So I mean if you're saying Canada's getting it from both sides, apologies to the Québécoise.

Kirsten Hillman:

Well, and I think Canadians are also feeling it too. So it's an ecosystem a little bit kind of back to David's point, we're not just on the receiving end. We have our own realities in our country and people are feeling their own ways and they're also on the transmission end, I'm sure. But I do think that it's something that all people that are interested in public policy and governance and the health of our societies need to be paying a lot of attention to. We need to get people back on track,

David Cohen:

As Kirsten said. I mean, yes, France is a good example, but the issues that you're talking about are present and have been present and increasingly present in all of the world's democracies over the last five plus years. I mean France, yes. United States, yes, Canada, yes, the United States, yes. But look at what happened in Germany with demonstrations out on the streets. Look at Israel a few years ago, right up to today, democracy is under challenge.

President Biden said this right in the election, in the run up to the midterm elections last year, which is that democracy is the best form of government we know. Doesn't mean that it's pretty, there can be ugliness around that, but it is still in the end the best structure of government that we are aware of. And it's something you have to fight for. You can't just relax and say, "oh, we don't have to worry about it. Democracy's always been here, it'll be be there." It's something you have to fight to maintain. And I think that's what's happening in Canada. I think that's what's happening in the United States. I think it's what's happening all around the world, as is an attempt to fight back the elements of extremism that are attacking democracy and the fundamental tenets of democracy throughout democratic nations in the world.

Ian Bremmer:

As we're talking Trump now, the first US president history to have been indicted, I wonder how it affects your job as you're thinking ahead to 2024. To what extent you feel like US commitments to Canada in the future are just fundamentally more challenging for you to make in an environment where the future direction of the United States might be so very different from where it is presently.

David Cohen:

So I don't want to be glib, but it doesn't really affect my job at all since I don't and can't have anything to do with 2024 politics, not my job. I spend a lot of time trying to stay away from it. The challenge that Donald Trump presents to democracy in the United States, in the relations between the United States and Canada has been, I'm the present, having nothing to do with him being indicted. I get asked the question all the time, as does Kirsten, and I'll tell you the answer that I give, which is, it underscores the importance of creating the lasting linkages and commitments that are mutual because that becomes that much harder for them to be unraveled.

In the unlikely event, in my view, that there is a change in government back to Donald Trump or a Donald Trump equivalent, the more we can embed the strong practices that we're talking about that we're working on, the more we can embed it in our culture, the more we can embed it in our mutual governments, the more success we can show as a result of those linkages, the harder it will be to unravel.

Ian Bremmer:

Kirsten, we're here in Canada, you get the last question, which is if there's one thing that doesn't exist presently in the US-Canadian relationship that you would like to see, it'd be what?

Kirsten Hillman:

I think I would like to see back to maybe where we started in terms of taking this relationship and projecting it into the future. I would like to see a deeper recognition beyond people who are just working on Canada-US relations all the time, of the fact that in addressing the challenges of the future, so in addressing strategic vulnerabilities, whether they are with respect to certain kinds of products or our supply chains or semiconductors or national security and the Arctic and our shared geography, a more immediate understanding that we are only going to get there together and we are only going to be as strong as we need to be by always staying aligned. And it kind of gets to the last point that David made, which is, ultimately the strength of this relationship has to be bourne by the millions and millions of Canadians and Americans who interact every day in business and academics and our law enforcement, our militaries, our intelligence services.

It has to be bourne by them, because the political winds change. And the way we are going to sustain the huge advantages that we both get as countries from this relationship is by giving all those relationships the strongest roots we can possibly give them. And I would like the people that have those roots who are responsible for the relationship to recognize the value and the power of what they do because I'm not sure that's always true. And especially, and I'll speak again for Canadians, I don't think Canadians appreciate the extent to which we are vital to Americans. And I would like to see that.

David Cohen:

Completely agree with what Kirsten just said about the way to make this relationship enduring. And I can't help but think about the announcement last week that for the first time in history, a Canadian will be joining a US space flight to and beyond the moon in our new Artemis mission. And what an incredible statement that is, about the relationship that exists in the science and technology and innovation area between Canada and the United States. And it's not so easy to unravel. It's something that's enduring no matter who the president of the United States is. And so I think that comes right out of the visit. It's consistent with the messaging of the president and the prime minister. But it's a fantastic statement and one, as Kirsten says, that should help to rally Canadians around the value of this relationship from a Canadian perspective.

Ian Bremmer:

That's something we'll have for the future.

Kirsten Hillman:

Exactly.

Ian Bremmer:

So with that, Kirsten Hillman, David Cohen, thanks so much for joining.

Kirsten Hillman:

Thanks for having us.

David Cohen:

Thanks for having us on.

Ian Bremmer:

Up next, it was the balloon seen around the world, or at least from Montana and it raised big questions about national security both on the ground and above the clouds. Here's my conversation with Canadian Defense Minister, Anita Anand. Minister Anand, thanks so much for joining me today.

Anita Anand:

Thanks for having me.

Ian Bremmer:

Last time you and I saw each other, China was big in the news, it is again. It was about a month ago that we had this significant US-Canada balloon incident, and at the time I remember you saying that you would be very careful about making assumptions at this point. Time has passed, we've learned a lot. What can you now say?

Anita Anand:

Well, we're cooperating very closely with the United States in terms of the data that it is retrieving from the downed balloon off of its eastern coast. And we, in terms of the suspected balloon that was above Yukon, were not able to retrieve debris given how remote and rugged the terrain was. But having said all of that, we do have in place our Indo-Pacific strategy, and that calls for us to be eyes wide open on China, for us to make sure we're supporting a free and open Indo-Pacific, for us to be cognizant and challenge China where we need to and cooperate where we must. These are kind of the guideposts for our relationship with China now inherent in our Indo-Pacific strategy.

Ian Bremmer:

I remember when the US secretary of defense after the balloon was shut down, wanted to use the hotline call, the minister of defense in China refused to take his call. Is there a change in the nature of the relationship between the US and Canada and China on the security on the defense side? Has it significantly deteriorated over the course of the past months?

Anita Anand:

Well, let's just take a look at what is happening in the Indo-Pacific. In the recent past, China has threatened the safety and security of our RCAF aircraft by buzzing our planes. And that is very difficult for us given that our pilots are simply monitoring UN sanctions under Operation NEON in international airspace. So I would say that we are watching activities in the Indo-Pacific very carefully. We are adding a third frigate, for example. We are going to be undertaking training exercises with our partners and allies. We are going to be working with them in cybersecurity also. All of this is under the umbrella of our Indo-Pacific strategy, and the reason is that the global environment has changed. We are seeing the world become increasingly dark, and that relates not only to Russia's further invasion of Ukraine, but also increasingly aggressive moves by China.

Ian Bremmer:

Well, let's connect the two if we're going to bridge, which is of course the United States has recently read the Riot Act to the Chinese, making it clear that there would be significant repercussions if the Chinese were to provide direct military support for Russia. We saw, of course, the Xi Jinping trip to Moscow as well. Does this involve, for example, Canadian sanctions against China? I'm sure you've been discussing it with the Americans. I mean, how are you thinking about what happens if the Russian-China relationship becomes closer?

Anita Anand:

Well, I think we have to be very much aware that the potential is there for an increasingly close relationship, and we have to be very aware that the cooperation between those countries might not only relate to Ukraine, but there are other theaters around the world that we have to be cognizant about including in Africa, including in South America. And so when we think about Ukraine, let's not just take a siloed very straight, narrow approach to that conflict, that we have the rise of aggressive powers like Russia, like China, and we need to be fully aware, and that's why I use the term eyes wide open on China.

Ian Bremmer:

I'll give you the global aperture for another second. There is a lot of additional architecture being created. I saw with Aukus as the agreement that New Zealand is now going to be joining in a non-nuclear capacity, something that they certainly wouldn't have been doing on China a year ago, three years ago. When we talk about this new architecture, do you see Canada increasingly wanting to play a formal role, maybe joining that, maybe joining the Quad. Are those things you're actively considering and discussing right now?

Anita Anand:

Well, we are very much aligned and tight with our Five Eyes allies. And indeed, much of our intelligence, for example, is shared amongst Five Eyes' partners. And I'm in very close touch on a multilateral and bilateral basis with our Five Eyes' allies. So it makes sense for us to continue to build and strengthen that alliance. I met with our Five Eyes colleagues when I was in Singapore last year, for example, and we'll continue to cooperate wherever possible. We all share the goal of creating a free and open Indo-Pacific region. That's important for peace and stability in that region. It's also important for maintaining resilient supply chains.

Ian Bremmer:

You're also of course, representing Canada in the Ukraine contact group, you're very engaged through NATO. There's been a lot of push to do more for Ukraine. The Ukrainians concern, they didn't have enough ammunition. It looks like that's getting resolved. They want the F16s, they're not coming anytime soon. Where do you think the coalition is heading on the Russia-Ukraine issue over the coming say three, six months? Because we know for the last year we've seen a lot of escalation in terms of what the West is doing and also in terms of how the Russians are perceiving the West.

Anita Anand:

Well, I think we have to start with the very fundamental point that NATO has never been more united than it is now, and that Putin thought that Europe would freeze in the dark. In reality, NATO has become more strong, and I see that around the NATO table every time we meet. And indeed, defense ministers from NATO countries and beyond over 50 countries meet monthly as part of the defense contact group organized by Secretary Austin. And our collaboration and our unity is palpable. Whenever we meet, for example, we sit around the table and we examine the capabilities of every country and we seek to compliment each other.

So for example, when it came to the discussion about the Leopard 2A4 battle tanks, a subset of countries took that conversation and had a side discussion about how we were going to facilitate the fast transport of the Leopard 2A4s to Poland and then to Ukraine. And I will say that the cooperation is really astounding, and Canada has played a leading role in that collaboration. We have our eight Leopard 2A4 battle tanks on the way, many of them on the ground. We are training Ukrainians on the use of those Leopard 2A4 tanks. We've sent spare parts and a recovery vehicle. So we are very much a front and center in terms of aid to Ukraine, having put $1 billion of aid on the table thus far. But also in terms of training on equipment and capabilities.

Ian Bremmer:

Canada's very aligned politically. There're also lots of Ukrainians that actually live in Canada, so it's a relevant demographic part of your constituency. But we've seen the Germans, for example, in response to this invasion, said the "Zeintenwende", we need to have a turning point, we got to spend 2% of GDP on defense. Many countries have been significantly ramping that up. Japan has even made that announcement. Canada's still very far from that. You're asked this all the time, but given what's happening with Russia and Ukraine, given the role that Canada's playing in NATO and with Russia and Ukraine, why aren't we seeing a faster step up on the defense side?

Anita Anand:

Well, what you are seeing is an increase in our defense spending in a way that is unprecedented. We are on an upward trajectory. We're increasing our defense spending by 70%. In fact, beginning in 2017, we committed 8 billion in our last federal budget in 2022 we're NATO's six largest defense budget. And on top of all that put on the table almost $40 billion for NORAD Modernization last year. So the trajectory is upward, Ian, and that's very positive. It was viewed quite positively when President Biden visited us two weeks ago.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, in the context of the budget, in the context of the pandemic, I understand these are difficult trade-offs, but surely you still feel that pressure?

Anita Anand:

Well it's pressure that we truly appreciate given the changing global strategic environment. And that is why we are continually putting money in targeted investments where that money is needed. NORAD Modernization and Continental Defense is one prime example. Another example is on NATO's Eastern Flank where we are leading the enhanced forward presence battle group in Latvia. We've been doing that for five years and we are playing a leadership role that is well recognized in terms of NATO's eastern flank.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, a lot of the defense and a lot of the national security relationship between the US and Canada is increasingly about the economy. It's increasingly about semiconductors.

Anita Anand:

Yes.

Ian Bremmer:

It's increasingly about critical minerals. These conversations are very real. They're very live and in some ways they're very unprecedented. Do you feel like Canada is as aligned with the United States on those issues as Canada clearly is in terms of core national security?

Anita Anand:

Most definitely. If you look at our recent federal budget, for example, we are very much focused on growing the green clean economy, focusing on strategic items like semiconductors, building the corridor from Proma with IBM, for example, into the States. We are focused on the relationship between security, national security, and economic prosperity. These two things are deeply intertwined and our relationship with the United States has never been more important building those resilient supply chains. Just recently I was in the United States visiting some of our major suppliers with the industry minister. Why? Because we recognize that there is an intense relationship between building the defense industry and our overall national security.

Ian Bremmer:

When you look at the debate that's being had right now in the United States on TikTok, which is being also considered a national security issue, is that something you think the Canadians need to take up?

Anita Anand:

We have banned TikTok on all federal government devices. I have four children of my own and have told them that they're not-

Ian Bremmer:

Have you banned it with your four children?

Anita Anand:

Yes, I have. And I'll just say that it's extremely important for us to be aligned and we think about that not only in terms of social media, but also in terms of our defense capabilities. We have signed a contract for 88 fighter jets from Lockheed Martin. The reason, at least one of the main reasons we chose that jet was because of interoperability. We need to make sure that we are very much aligned with our allies, especially as the global strategic environment continues to change and the world becomes increasingly dark.

Ian Bremmer:

So if the Americans end up either making a ban or saying they have to sell it, and as a consequence they're effectively banned, not just from government, but talking as a country, you think the Canadians would have to follow that?

Anita Anand:

Well, we are very much aligned on security issues, generally speaking. And I will say that we have the communication security establishment here in Canada that is extremely close with the NSA. And we do look at each policy proposal in combination with what the United States is doing.

Ian Bremmer:

One thing that I've seen a lot of recently is given how many crises exist on the global stage right now, obviously bandwidth is a challenge and the Americans can do a lot on the Russia-Ukraine front and coordinate NATO. It's very strong as you suggested. Same thing with China Indo-Pac, very strong as you suggested. But when you talk about the Middle East, when you talk about the Global South, actually a lot less attention. How can Canada be helpful? How can Canada take a leadership role in areas of the world where actually you see a growing gap in that alignment?

Anita Anand:

That's a great question. We are playing a leadership role. For example, we have operation impact in the Middle East. I visited our troops in Kuwait there over the Christmas holidays. And we need to make sure that we're continuing to bolster our international operations as we're doing. I was also in Brazil at Conference of the Americas last summer, and what I saw there was the desire for those countries to hear more from Canada, from the United States, especially in terms of the war on Ukraine, the illegal and unjustifiable war that is. And what I found very helpful and in fact important was for Canada and the United States to continue to have these conversations because not all countries are receiving the same information as in this age of disinformation and misinformation.

Ian Bremmer:

One I want to ask you about, which I haven't discussed on the show is Haiti, because it's not so far, doesn't have a government, I mean basically run by gangs at this point. The Americans have been pressing Canada pretty hard, though it was friendly with the Biden Trudeau meeting on, couldn't you do something? Couldn't you provide some troops, provide some policing to help? When Canada gets that message from the US, do you sort of shrug and go, Hey, what about you guys?

Anita Anand:

Well, I think what our view is, is that we have to be focusing on Haitian led solutions. That's why our ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae has taken two visits there. That's why we are engaging in surveillance activities like with a CP-140 Aurora flying overhead or two ships in the harbor around Port-au-Prince so that we have full information before we are making our decisions. And as you know, we've made a number of decisions relating to sanctions against Haitians as well as a hundred million dollars for the Haitian National police in terms of providing equipment for them.

Ian Bremmer:

No, and that's happened and there's more money that's coming. And you made that announcement, but I'm just asking, when the Americans are making that statement, do you then go back to your folks in the Ministry of Defense and say, "Hey, how about we do 10% or 20%, but you are sending troops too?" We don't want to be by ourselves there.

Anita Anand:

It's across government conversation, not only defense, obviously.

Ian Bremmer:

I know, but is that your perspective?

Anita Anand:

It is also about making sure that this is Haitian led. Because the support that we provide has to be support that is welcomed. And that's why we are being very prudent about the support that we are putting on the ground and making sure that we are collaborating with multiple partners in the region.

Ian Bremmer:

It's hard to be Haitian-led when we don't know who's running Haiti, right? I mean, you're not doing polls down there.

Anita Anand:

But that's why we need to be prudent. We can't simply throw money at a problem and expect it to go away. And that is important not only in this instance, but across the board, whether we're talking about continental defense or aid to Ukraine or the Indo-Pacific, we have to be very thoughtful, very careful about what we are doing with our resources.

Ian Bremmer:

Well, and frankly, it says something significant about the US-Canada defense relationship when Haiti is one of the biggest points of tension right now compared to where it was.

Anita Anand:

Well, I will say that I have a very close relationship with Secretary Austin. We meet regularly, we speak regularly, and we see eye to eye on most things. We visited Colorado Springs, for example, NORAD operations there and really see eye to eye and the importance of continuing to commit to Ukraine, continuing to commit to continental defense and continuing to commit to the Indo-Pacific.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, I can't let you go with that one final question about the border, because of course that's another piece of incremental progress. And here the Canadians are having some challenges, right, with Americans and others that are coming over. And there was a willingness of Canada to take a fair number as well as to ship a fair number back. And how hard was this to get done?

Anita Anand:

Well, it was part of the cooperation and the spirit of collaboration that really imbued the visit of President Biden to Canada. The fact that we could extend the safe third country agreement to the entire border, the longest undefended border in the world, and to ensure also that we will be accepting more and more migrants now that we have this safe third country agreement applying across the board.

Ian Bremmer:

So you're saying we don't need to build a wall, is that what you're telling me?

Anita Anand:

I'm saying we don't need to build a wall.

Ian Bremmer:

That's great. That's very good. Minister Anand, wonderful to see you again.

Anita Anand:

Thanks so much, Ian.

Ian Bremmer:

That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World Podcast. Do you like what you heard? Of course you did. Well, why don't you check us out at gzeromedia.com and take a moment to sign up for our newsletter. It's called GZERO Daily.

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