TRANSCRIPT: Journalism on Trial in the Philippines with Maria Ressa
Maria Ressa:
I have eight arrest warrants. If you take all of those cases and the maximum jail sentence of each one, it's almost a hundred years.
Ian Bremmer:
Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. Here you'll find extended versions of the interviews from my show on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer, and today we're looking at a legal battle over press freedom, happening more than 8,000 miles away from here, in Manila. And why it has implications for free speech and journalism all across the globe. My guest is Maria Ressa. She's founder of an online news organization that has drawn the ire of Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte, putting her in grave danger.
Announcer:
This episode of the GZERO World Podcast was made possible by Lennar, America's largest and most innovative home builder, and the number one destination for foreign residential real estate investment in the US. Learn more at www.lennargzero.com. That's L-E-N-N-A-R-G-Z-E-R-O.com.
Ian Bremmer:
Maria Ressa, very good to be with you.
Maria Ressa:
It's good to see you again, Ian.
Ian Bremmer:
You're making some news these days, which is not necessarily the position you want to be in, as one of the most well-known journalists in your country. It's become pretty clear to all of us following the Philippines, that your job as a journalist broadly is becoming a form of political protest in your country. What's life like for you right now, on a day-to-day basis?
Maria Ressa:
This time period began, the attacks against us by my own government, began four years ago. So it's almost like you're sick. You're sick, some days you wake up and you feel okay, and other days you wake up and it's not so good, and it doesn't go away. It doesn't go away, so this is a marathon, and I feel like every... I would like to just do the stories, even the way other journalists introduce me now, the critic of President Duterte, those things made me uncomfortable, because I didn't set out to be a critic. I set out to be exactly what I am, which is a journalist. But as time went on, the impunity in the drug war, the impunity that we looked at in the propaganda war, and then obviously the government not wanting us to do these stories, the weaponization of social media, followed by the weaponization of the law against us.
And then when I was arrested, all of a sudden I was unshackled. We were seeing things firsthand. I don't have to ask the person being arrested whether you're innocent or guilty, or look for documents. I was being arrested and I knew I wasn't guilty. So that was really a transformation for me, when I realized that I will speak and I will speak, because it's my rights that are getting violated and I see the blatant abuse of power, and its impact on press freedom.
Ian Bremmer:
So what role do you play, both for yourself as well as for society, in the Philippines? Now that's very different than what you would do if you were a journalist?
Maria Ressa:
That's a tough question to answer, Ian, but I guess I will say that if it was only for myself, I could be quiet. But I feel like this is this moment where I'm now a senior journalist. Next year will be my 35th year as a journalist. I head a news group. I used to head a news group, before here, I was the head of ABS-CBN and that network's already been shut down. Now here we are in Rappler, and I feel like the baton was passed to me at this point in time, where I can't do anything else but what I am doing now and that sickness thing, it's a great metaphor and I use it for three different things.
When you have eight criminal cases ongoing, simultaneously, when you have COVID-19, and then when you have the propaganda war where again, that sickness thing comes in, because influence operations or information operations, which is where the destruction of democracy begins. In this, that's also, I talk about that as a virus that comes into the body of politics, of democracy, infects us, changes us, changes the way we think, and then changes the way we act. I have a tremendous responsibility, not just to Rappler, but to news organizations, to hold the line and then, beyond that, to our democracy, because I also feel like part of the reason that the government zeroed in on me is because I didn't cow. I wasn't silent. And I know that the best defense for a journalist in this situation is to keep doing the stories. It's a huge responsibility and it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not an activist, but I suppose in the battle for facts, in the battle for truth, journalists, all journalists, are activists. And the other thing we have to embrace is how journalism is changing, has changed and how power has changed. And then the huge role of technology that has enabled the rise of these populist, authoritarian style leaders.
Ian Bremmer:
People all over the world right now are watching, in a period of profound crisis, that leaders are attempting to consolidate more power at the expense of democratic institutions. Now, it's interesting that of course, your leader, Rodrigo Duterte, who in many ways fits this mold of self style populist; he speaks in very crude terms and he's very much a law and order candidate, lock them all up. But he's very popular and he remains very popular, and he has actually been fairly successful, economically. He's not seen as enormously, personally corrupt. He hasn't had the kind of problems that Bolsonaro and Brazil or Trump in the United States have had. And so, given that most of the people watching this right now will not know a lot about the Philippines, I think it'd be interesting to hear your view. And if you can... I know that you're in the middle of this fight, so it's very personal for you, but I'd love to hear some of why you think he's done so well, why he's been so successful as leader of your country.
Maria Ressa:
I think there are lots of similarities with the United States, in the sense that there was a perfect storm that came in, liberal democracy failed to deliver its promise, not enough of the trickle-down effect. Simultaneous with that unhappiness is the complexity of the world. We started seeing this in 2014, I would say with Indian elections then that, because the world has become so complex, people want someone to help to just make those decisions. That was a factor in play. And then the biggest game changer, I think, is technology. And that comes from your country. Silicon Valley has made decisions that has impacted every single democracy, every nation around the world. Rodrigo Duterte, so he comes in, he's got the right thing, he's refreshing. I would say, yes, unlike Trump, he has more experience in governance. So here he comes, and in that interview in 2015, I ask him a question and he admits to killing three people, on camera. I didn't even know how to react. It was, at that point, actually kind of refreshing to interview someone like this. And that novelty was probably the first six months leading into the campaign.
And then after he took office, the first deaths in the drug war happened just hours after he took office. And he was the first politician to successfully use social media to win the top post in our country. But just hours after, social media was weaponized. And so, I think two things, when you talk about popularity, in our country, I would suggest that his popularity is buoyed by the propaganda machine on Facebook. And this is part of the reason we're frenemies. I've been after them. We are one of the fact checking partners of Facebook in this country. One of the two Filipinos, there's a third, AFP, but I've been after them to clean this up, because this is a behavioral modification system. That's actually what's been happening there.
So all of this to say that he is a very, very powerful man, because here's the Philippines, 109 million people. We have had endemic corruption, weak law enforcement and President Duterte has molded this in a whole different way. He's increased the salaries of our military and our police. The police have led the charge in the killings of extra judicial killings. The government denies this, of course. What they will say is that the police has killed 7,000, 6,000 to 7,000 people. That's a lot on its own, but human rights activists will say at least 27,000 people have been killed. That's the Philippine Commission on Human Rights.
Ian Bremmer:
So now that we're in the middle of this pandemic, how would you say that has affected life on the ground, politically, in the Philippines? Has it made it easier for Duterte, because you want that strong man? Or are you starting to see more criticism, that actually all of the promises don't play out on the ground?
Maria Ressa:
All of it. Everything that you just said is happening, so I think the first is when you have a virus, there's no us against them. Fighting a virus means the government must deliver, and when it doesn't deliver, real people die. So that's the first, so it's a huge challenge for the Duterte administration, and it reacted the way you would expect, which is it has a hammer. The COVID-19 response is led by retired military generals. So we have a very militaristic response and not enough of the public health part, not enough doctors involved in this. When the lockdown happened, the number of tests that had been done at that point, this was in March, was about 12 tests for every million Filipinos. Now we're at about 6,400 for every million Filipinos, but still not enough. So number one, the government must deliver. It has a huge challenge, and you would think that it would do a whole of society approach and bring everyone together. That's not the case.
The second is the military has, and the police have, taken larger roles, and President Duterte in late night ramblings has told the police that if Filipinos break quarantine that they should, and these are his words, shoot them dead, shoot them dead. And that's actually fueled Filipinos who are stuck at home, to go out online, and for the first time, the day after President Duterte said that, hashtag oust Duterte now trended number one overnight and globally as well. That would've been unheard of, but it also allowed President Duterte and his government to do certain things that also would not have been possible if COVID-19 hadn't been there; shutting down the largest broadcaster, ABS-CBN. That happened on May 5. If that had not been during a lockdown, there would've been people out on the streets. Now they've consolidated, so it's been almost two months that ABS-CBN has been shut down.
With me, the conviction. I think what's on trial at that point is not just us, Rey, myself and Rappler, but also our judicial system. How independent is it? I was convicted on June 15th, we filed a motion for partial reconsideration, bringing up 13 huge leaps of fact that the judge had failed to consider. Just the two big things is in order to even get this case to court, the judge accepted the prosecution's defense... Well, the prosecution's push that they should change the period of prescription or the statute of limitations of libel from 1 year to 12 years.
Ian Bremmer:
Retroactively?
Maria Ressa:
It's shocking. And then apply the cyber law, retroactively. That was a workaround.
Ian Bremmer:
Because that piece was originally published at a time that this law did not apply. And so you have to-
Maria Ressa:
Did not exist. Did not exist.
Ian Bremmer:
Right. Yeah.
Maria Ressa:
And then even the re-publication, that novel concept that the Judge, Judge Montesa, also accepted, re-publication at a time when the law itself was under a TRO at the Supreme Court, so it still wasn't in effect. So essentially we've been found guilty of violating a law that didn't exist yet. That's incredible to me.
Ian Bremmer:
There a lot of ways I can go here. One is the fact that right now you face a jail term. Do you feel hopeful, given every tool that's being used? Right now, are you basically throwing yourself on the mercy of; I hope these judges are actually, despite the fact that they're not showing it so far in your case, I hope that ultimately they're going to rule properly? Or are you hoping that the Philippine people are going to become so loud, as they have with the oust Duterte hashtag, that they can apply grassroots pressure that'll force Duterte to back down? Which of those two are you putting more hope in at this point?
Maria Ressa:
It's like the being sick part. Some days it's more of one and less of the other, and other days it's more. It shifts. Let me phrase it this way; I have eight arrest warrants. I am out on bail for eight. In order to be able to leave to travel, I have to ask court permission. So I think about that all the time, and I had to grapple with going to jail. This particular cyber libel is six years, but if you take all of those cases and the maximum jail sentence of each one, it's almost a hundred years. So last year I had to be okay with it. I had to be okay with that possibility of going to jail, otherwise I couldn't fight back. And there are days when I feel like there's no way here. There's no way here. Because the environment that we live in, and I say this is true about the Duterte administration, it's managing on the three Cs; corrupt, coerce, co-opt. And if you're neither of those, then you become a cautionary tale. I'm the cautionary tale for journalists.
Ian Bremmer:
Are you surprised that they haven't actually just shut Rappler down?
Maria Ressa:
I ask that all the time. So let's put it this way; it seems important to President Duterte to have the veneer of rule of law and all of the attacks against its perceived critics have been led by the office of the Solicitor General. It's been a law, I call it. The law has been bent to the point that it's broken. So that's been important. Look, some days I wake up and I think; why don't we just declare that we're a dictatorship? Then it makes it easier. Then we don't have to pretend the Philippine constitution, which is patterned after the US, with our Bill of Rights, patterned after the US. Then we don't have to pretend that these rights are there for every Filipino, but as long as we have them, I have no choice but to take the position I've taken. And I just draw a deep breath and keep going.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, you said recently... I'm going to read a quote to you; I can't remember a day when I didn't pick up my phone and get inundated with hate. Anyone on social media feels a little bit of that, but I suspect that almost no one watching is experiencing what you're experiencing. Talk a little bit about that. Have you been doxxed? Are you worried about personal security? Folks knowing exactly where you live? Or is it really just a; as long as I don't look at my phone, then I can put this away for a period of time? How much is that?
Maria Ressa:
No, unfortunately, the online violence is real. It started in 2016 and it started with the threats. Then I became every animal you can think of. And then it just got really... It used gender, my facial features, my skin color. It's horrid in that sense. And let's look at the narratives, because this is a battle of narratives, like a good influence operations. And again, I talked about the influence operations; you say a lie a million times, it becomes a fact. You change the way people think, what they believe and how they act, so social media is a behavioral modification system. The message seated in 2016 was Maria Ressa is not a journalist, she's a criminal. And the first time you read it, it's like; doesn't matter, because it's so ridiculous. She's obviously not a criminal. Look at her track record. Track record doesn't matter anymore in the age of social media, but repeated a million times, followed in 2017 by the same words coming out of government officials and President Duterte himself saying that, and then in 2018, the 11 cases and investigations, in 2019, the arrest warrants and then in 2020 a conviction. So what's real and what's not? Journalist or criminal? That is how we change reality. That is how death by a thousand cuts happens of our democracy. That is how President Duterte is the most, the best leader the Philippines has ever had. It's buoyed by this propaganda machine.
The kinds of threats that we have, and this is I think where Facebook falters dismally. It has a very narrow description in its content moderation system of hate, of hate speech, and it doesn't give any protections. I think it doesn't give any protections to journalists. In fact, it strips away the protections that the Constitution gives us to challenge great power. And then just randomly says that; well, you're a public figure, so just report it. When you have 90 hate messages per hour, you don't have enough hours in the day. And why should it be on the user to actually fix the system that others have created and are making money from? This is huge and I think it's not just the Philippines. These cheap armies on social media have rolled democracy back all around the world. And the first studies came out in 2017, that was Freedom House. They said; in at least 27 or 28 countries around the world, this is happening. A year later, Oxford University's Computational Propaganda Research Project almost doubled that number. And then in 2019, that number was more than 70 countries around the world, including the United States.
Let's look at the United States. That's a perfect example of something that was seeded in 2016 and then erupts in 2020. The Mueller Report, this is already documented, the Russian disinformation networks targeted Americans, and one of the fissure lines of society that was pounded, on both sides, split wide open. It is race and identity. Black Lives Matter was targeted in 2016 and here we go. So again, this stuff that happens on social media, it erupts in the real world.
Ian Bremmer:
Most people watching the show might not be aware that the most popular Black Lives Matter site in 2016 on Facebook was actually a Russian site, had about 500,000 followers. But you are, on the one hand, as you said, you're a frenemy of Facebook, because you're also participating with Facebook to help document the challenges in the Philippines. What's the response been, that you've gotten from Facebook execs? Is there anyone that is serious in the company, that actually gets what you're going through and thinks they need to do something? Or do they just yes you, with the understanding that their business model doesn't care about you, because they need to make the money?
Maria Ressa:
I think there are individuals inside Facebook who know how bad it is. I mean, come on. Facebook itself, after the UN went to Myanmar, Facebook itself said that genocide happened. The biggest problem is, and this is where Americans like you, American journalists, have more power than journalists like me in the Philippines, because they will listen to Americans. Look, this is part of the reason, in 2016, I didn't really think we had to go to regulation, because I thought that tech people are like journalists, like we will self-regulate. Journalists were the gatekeepers for many, many, many, many years. And we had that principle. We had standards and ethics, the mission of journalism. We protected the public sphere. Well, we lost that power to tech. Tech took it, made money off of it, but abdicated responsibility for protecting the public sphere.
Ian Bremmer:
Yeah, they do not want to be journalists. They do not want to be treated as journalists. They have no interest in it.
Maria Ressa:
And yet, they're the world's largest distributor of news. And this is, I think, what Facebook is grappling with right now, because they don't want to, they are using these laws to do their own acrobatics. But the reality is there are people inside Facebook, we've seen this now, who do believe that they are not doing... That they're becoming evil, if they aren't already, and that they're trying to change it. And I would say... I've met Mark Zuckerberg. I think he's a really bright young man. He's young compared to me, because Ian, I'm much older than he is. And when I met him, I thought, my God, he's facile, he's agile and yet he doesn't know enough to protect against his own weaknesses. This idea where he says; this is a freedom of speech issue, is just garbage. This is not a freedom of speech issue. This is a distribution issue. Facebook and other social media platforms allow lies, laced with anger and hate, to spread faster and further than facts, which are really boring.
Ian Bremmer:
What would you like to see from Congress, from the Trump administration, right now, that might make a difference?
Maria Ressa:
Oh, well, let's talk tech first, because I think that's the Pareto principle, and that's the way I've lived the last four years. And part of what keeps me going is that we can still build legislation or Silicon Valley, enlightened self-interest has to happen. They need to stop the lies from taking over the ecosystem, to the point that people have no idea what the facts are anymore. So you're just like; it's just raucous screaming. It is tearing everything apart. You cannot have integrity of markets. You cannot have integrity of elections, if you make facts debatable. So I think that's the first, and when I think about legislation for the social media platforms, it has to just happen in two huge markets. That's in the US and in Europe, because when you guys do that, it will cascade to us, the same way that the nastiness that has been allowed to flourish, also cascades to us, except our countries don't have strong institutions to stand up against that. And it collapsed our institutions. Information is power. I think that's the first.
And then the second one is, you have been a victim of the same thing, of the influence operations that have weakened your own system of democracy. And very few people are talking about the values. How can I talk about press freedom when so few countries... There are two countries that stood up for press freedom, that led this whole coalition of other countries that joined, but that didn't happen 'til July of 2019, and it was Canada and Britain. The United States, I don't even know if the US joined, but we feel that gaping hole. So I think the first is; fix the mistake that Silicon Valley has done. Once you fix that, then what happens to the people whose cognitive biases were radicalized and who don't listen to fact checks, because they have now been torn apart. And that's what the social media platforms have done, so they don't change the way they think overnight. America's also going to have to heal at society and frankly, where you go, we all go in many ways, because democracy was weakened by what's happened in the States.
Ian Bremmer:
Oh, Maria Ressa, I wish you luck and Godspeed. Good to talk to you today.
Maria Ressa:
Good to talk to you. Thanks, Ian.
Ian Bremmer:
That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World {odcast. Like what you've heard? I hope so. Come check us out at gzeromedia.com and sign up for our newsletter signal.
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This episode of the GZERO World Podcast was made possible by Lennar, America's largest and most innovative home builder, and the number one destination for foreign residential real estate investment in the US. Learn more at www.lennargzero.com. That's L-E-N-N-A-R-G-Z-E-R-O.com.
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