Podcast: Showdown in South America

TRANSCRIPT: Showdown in South America

Iván Duque:

I want Colombia to be perceived as the Silicon Valley in Latin America.

Ian Bremmer:

You going to call it something? The Blank Valley, is there a valley?

Ian Bremmer:

Hi, I'm Ian Bremmer and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. That is an audio version of what you can find on public television, where I analyze global topics, sit down with big guests, and make use of little puppets. This week I sit down with President Iván Duque of Colombia. We'll cover Latin America because that's where he's from, and particularly if he sees an end in sight for the crisis in Venezuela. Let's get to it.

Announcer:

The GZERO World is brought to you by our founding sponsor, First Republic. First Republic, a private bank and wealth management company understands the value of surface, safety, and stability in today's uncertain world. Visit firstrepublic.com to learn more.

Ian Bremmer:

President of Colombia, Iván Duque.

Iván Duque:

Thank you so much, Ian. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

Ian Bremmer:

Good to see you again. So, big speech at the United Nations. Dossier that you showed the Venezuelans in violation of security council resolutions. You want this international coalition to get a lot stronger against President Maduro. Is it working?

Iván Duque:

I think yes, Ian. We sat down with many presidents of Latin America and we celebrated that we got the Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance to be not only activated, but to approve a stronger sanctions on Maduro. And the dossier that I presented before the General Assembly demonstrates that the behavior that Nicolás Maduro has with Colombian terrorists in his territory is comparable to what the one we saw of the Taliban regime with Al-Qaeda using their soil to plot against the United States and the rest of the world.

Iván Duque:

[Spanish]

Iván Duque:

This dossier of 128 pages contains overwhelming proof that demonstrates the complicity of the regime of Nicolás Maduro with the terrorist cartels who are attacking the Colombian people.

Iván Duque:

[English]

Iván Duque:

In the case of Venezuela Maduro is sponsoring terrorist to plot against the Colombian-

Ian Bremmer:

Against your government.

Iván Duque:

So, that should be not only denounced, but it also gives a strong message that we all have to be united to condemn that regime, and we all have to work together to allow the Venezuelan people to regain their liberties and their democracy.

Ian Bremmer:

Now you've said very tough things about Maduro. For a long time you've been out there, you compared him to Slobodan Milosevic. Comparing him to the Taliban, of course, the American response, there was a war. A war of 18 years against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Iván Duque:

In the case of Maduro, Ian, I think we have already made clear that the countries in Latin America that are in support of President Guaidó, we know very well that the Inter-American Treaty for Reciprocal Assistance allow us to have stronger sanctions. And we set very clear that there are three objectives to be reached. The first is putting an end to the dictatorship and the usurpation. The second thing is a transitionary government. And the third thing is the call for free elections. So, we are putting as much as sanctions are possible, so that those three elements are met. And obviously we have to work jointly designing and helping the Venezuelan people design their recovery of their economy and their institutions.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, pretty much everybody in the region agrees with you, they want an end to this regime. On the other hand, you know that President Maduro felt so comfortable in his power that he was able to just go to Moscow, leave his country.

Iván Duque:

Well, I think the first message is that he didn't come to United Nations General Assembly. Last year he was here in New York and he tried to present himself as the leader of a country that was not in a dictatorship. Today, more than 50 countries have recognized President Guaidó, the interim president and the General Assembly. Today he has a diplomatic blockade that is putting a lot of pressure on him. Today, there's a Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance also putting a stronger sanctions. So, the message, he didn't come here because he's no longer the president of Venezuela. He's a dictatorship that is seeing his power destroyed day by day. And the whole world is now having more actions against him. So, I think the reason why he wasn't here is because he has been weakened and not because he has gotten stronger.

Ian Bremmer:

Also, members of the opposition have split with Guaidó and their willingness to meet in negotiations with President Maduro. One of the biggest problems the Venezuelans have had in their opposition over the last years is just how fragmented, how hard it is to maintain support for demonstrations, given the incredible depredation that people have been experiencing to maintain a commitment for a consolidated opposition.

Iván Duque:

I think Maduro's trying to play the same games that Chavez did. So he tried to use his a minority inside what can be the opposition, because those parties that apparently were in the opposition for a long time, they had dialogues with Chavez or they had dialogues with Maduro. So, they're not a significant portion of the opposition. They're just a group of people that are being played by Maduro. But the strong part of the opposition, which have been the people that have defended liberties and values in Venezuela for a long time, I think they remain united.

Ian Bremmer:

Does there need to be credible military pressure in addition against this regime?

Iván Duque:

I think that's the game that Maduro wants to play. Maduro wants to make provocations on Colombia. Maduro wants to start moving troops to the border zone. He wants to create some sort of a military escalation so that he can diffuse the focus of public opinion and try to victimize himself, but we're not going to play that game. So, I have said something, Ian, in the case of Colombia, we're not going to let him provoke us. Colombia is not an aggressor. And as we said today with many presidents, the decision is going to be peaceful, strong on sanctions, and we are going to make this happen without having to use force.

Ian Bremmer:

So, 1.4 million Venezuelan refugees are now living in your country. The United States may not be paying that much attention to it in the headlines every day. You have no choice. And frankly, a lot of countries around the world when they experience that, they're talking about closing the borders. You are still letting them in, you're welcoming.

Iván Duque:

Ian, I remember that when I run for the presidency, I said I was going to have an open border policy, that I would have an orderly migration policy. And I think, yes, we have received 1.4 million Venezuelan brothers and sisters. Why? Because they are dying of hunger, because they lack of medicine. Some come with frozen bones without hope, and we have tried to provide them the companion so that they can recover that hope. Does it create fiscal stress? Yes, it does. Does it create social stress? Yes, it does. But I think we're showing the world that we can manage this with solidarity and fraternity. And the other thing that I've always considered is even if we decided in the past to close the borders, the border is so large, so big that people will go through the trails. Having an orderly migration policy has been helpful.

Ian Bremmer:

Backlash starting from all of those refugees on the ground with your people in Colombia?

Iván Duque:

Some people you ... We're having local elections in October, and obviously there's some politicians that want to play the xenophobic speech, but I have been very tough on that. We cannot say that the Venezuelans are causes of crimes or that the Venezuelans are the causes of problems. Yes, we have a challenge, but I also have a vision for the future. We used to have a $7 billion market with Venezuela that basically came to zero. But I'm pretty certain that now with all the fraternity, solidarity that we have given to the Venezuelan people, the bonds that we have created are stronger than ever. And I'm certain that once the dictatorship falls and there is the opportunity to rebuild the economy, the institutions, those bonds are going to show that the recovery of both economies is going to happen hand in hand. That Colombia is going to benefit from those bonds that we created. And I know that Venezuela, once it starts growing in its economy, that is going to generate even a bigger growth for Colombia.

Ian Bremmer:

So, President Duque, you just met with Trump. He certainly agrees with you on all these points on Venezuela. He hasn't agreed with you on everything. A couple months ago he was saying that he doesn't think that you guys are doing anything.

Donald Trump:

You have your new president of Colombia, he said how he's going to stop drugs. More drugs are coming out of Colombia right now than before he was president, so he has done nothing for us.

Ian Bremmer:

He's had a fight like this with the Mexicans not doing anything at the border. How do you respond to that when you hear that from the United States?

Iván Duque:

Ian, I've always kept something in my behavior as a leader. I try to keep personal discussions aside. I have built with President Trump a transparent relationship, and I've been able always to speak to him based on evidence. When you look at what Colombia has achieved in the fight against drugs, per every ton the United States seizes of cocaine in its borders, Colombia is seizing 18 tons. Colombia represents more than 40% of all the seizures of drugs in the Western hemisphere, and no country in the world does as much as Colombia to fight drugs. We have been the number one ally on the United States in this fight against drugs. But we undertake this task because it is our moral duty, because it's the right thing to do, and because narco-trafficking has been the fuel of terrorist groups in Colombia. So, this fight against narco trafficking is by conviction. And I think as of today, President Trump and the US administration have recognized the efforts that we have done considering.

Ian Bremmer:

You think they feel more comfortable than a few months ago?

Iván Duque:

Considering that when we began the administration one year ago, we inherited 200,000 hectares of coca while four years before it was less than 60,000 hectares. In one year, my administration has for the first time in seven years stopped the exponential growth and got a reduction. So, we're going to keep on reducing the illegal crops and we are going to meet the target of bringing it to less, to reduce it by 50% by 2022. Why? Because it is our moral duty.

Ian Bremmer:

Part of sustainability on the ground in Colombia, of course, is trying to ensure that a peace deal with the FARC can actually hold. Incredibly difficult thing to do, brutal war killed hundreds of thousands of people. And yet you now see that some members previously of the FARC are saying they're going to take up arms.

Iván Duque:

Well, those guys ... Those guys who appear into that phony video, those guys were never truthful to any peace. They were participating in narco-trafficking activities. So, the reason why they came out with that video is because they were caught. They were caught on the scene of crime and the whole world knew that they were participating in those activities, but that's a minority of people. Now, what we have said in our government, for the people who are in the reincorporation process, who are truthfully committed to the Peace Truth Reparation and Non-repetition values, we're working with them for the success of the reincorporation. But those who dare to go back to criminal activities will be faced by us and will be brought to justice.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, I mean is some of this on your government? In the sense that peace plan, very complicated, lots of laws for economic integration, social integrated, need to be actually implemented by every external measure, about half of them are stuck in term of legislation right now. How frustrating is this?

Iván Duque:

No, I mean, Ian, let me go to some of the figures. Some of the people said, "Duque is going to destroy the peace agreement." Well, let's just compare what happened in the 20 months before I had my oath of office and what has happened in the last year. During the first 20 months of implementation, you know how many collective productive projects were approved? Two. In my administration, 27 that are benefiting more than 1,400 former guerrilla members.

Ian Bremmer:

I mean, is this the biggest challenge you have right now, it's just getting a move on all of these pieces? Because you also have a lot of people in the country that feel like, "Why should I want to work with these people? Why should they represent me when they had taken up arms against me?"

Iván Duque:

But let me tell you two things. The first thing is that the peace process was crafted to be implemented in 15 years. So, we have been in office for a year. The implementation process began 20 months before I even took office. And we have done more in one year than was previously done until 20 months before. But I'm very clear things that are going well, yes, we have supported it and things that are not going well, we have denounced it and we have tried to make changes.

Ian Bremmer:

So, while you've been here in New York, Venezuela's been occupying you. But the big issue for the United Nations has, of course, been climate. And your neighborhood is challenging. President Bolsonaro in Brazil, massive criticism against him for what's been going on, and what hasn't been going on to protect the Amazon. How do you respond?

Iván Duque:

Ian, the issue of our time, the issue for your or for our generation and for the future generation is what is it that we're going to do with climate change? Climate change is a reality and we need to adapt and we need to mitigate the effects. We all have to work as if we had the higher levels of emissions because this involves us all. That's why I have said a country like Colombia that is the second country with more biodiversity per square kilometer after Brazil.

Ian Bremmer:

Brazil is a lot bigger than you are. The deforestation in Brazil is picking up under the Bolsonaro administration.

Iván Duque:

Ian, let me try to say something. Most of the Amazona countries have been badly affected by deforestation. Let's look at the causes. Is it illegal mining? Yes. Is it illegal crops? Yes. Is it an illegal extension of agricultural border? Yes. Is that also the illegal development of the cattle in some of the parts of the Amazon? And is that also the illegal development of wood industry? All of those are causes, but at the same time, the effects of climate change are making it more difficult when it comes to the dry seasons. So, we all have to work together.

Ian Bremmer:

So the last thing I want to ask you about is China. And you were out there and certainly welcoming a lot more investment from the Chinese into your country. We see it across Latin America. Are you concerned about overdependence on investment flows from a very different part of the world, a dramatic shift from what we've seen in South America recently?

Iván Duque:

When it comes to trade, I am very practical. When you look at the trade relationship between Colombia and China, we have a growing trade deficit. So, how do we face that situation? Opening markets. And I went to China to open new markets for the Colombian products. So we got to open, for example, the banana sector so that we can export 40 million dollars per year of bananas from Colombia to China. We opened the avocado market. We're in the process of opening the beef sector. And at the same time, we were telling Chinese investors to look at infrastructure projects in Colombia. That makes sense. Obviously, it makes sense in a global world. And China has become Colombia second-largest trading partner, but we have a big trade deficit. So, we must try to see how we close that gap. And at the same time, how do we bring more investment?

Ian Bremmer:

Now, you know avocados are entirely too expensive in the United States right now.

Iván Duque:

Well, I hope that now that we have the access of more avocado from Colombia, they're going to lower the price and they're going to be tastier than the ones you have from other countries.

Ian Bremmer:

Like Mexico?

Iván Duque:

Well, I'm not going to get into that.

Ian Bremmer:

For example? No, I'm starting to feel like there might be a competition.

Iván Duque:

You'll be the one who will evaluate which is the best guacamole.

Ian Bremmer:

President Iván Duque. Thank you very much.

Iván Duque:

Thank you so much, Ian. It's a pleasure to be here.

Ian Bremmer:

Good to see you always.

Iván Duque:

All the best.

Ian Bremmer:

Yep.

Ian Bremmer:

That's our show this week. We'll be right back here next week same place, same time. Unless you're watching on social media, in which case it's wherever you happen to be. Don't miss it. In the meantime, check us out at gzeromedia.com.

Announcer:

The GZERO World is brought to you by our founding sponsor, First Republic. First Republic, a private bank and wealth management company understands the value of surface, safety, and stability in today's uncertain world. Visit firstrepublic.com to learn more.