Podcast: Clerical Errors

Transcript

Listen: The Catholic Church is facing tremendous internal upheaval and Pope Francis is at the center of it. Our guest is a Jesuit priest who recently had a private audience with the Pontiff, and who has courted plenty of controversy of his own. In a candid conversation with Ian Bremmer, bestselling author Fr. James Martin discusses the moment of potential schism the Church is facing. On issues like LGBT inclusion, immigration, and income inequality, Pope Francis has moved the Church into a more progressive place, one that traditionalists and conservatives oppose. Meanwhile, the scandals continue to take a toll on Church membership and credibility. Fr. Martin frankly and honestly addresses all these issues and more.

TRANSCRIPT: Clerical Errors

Father Jim Martin:

I like to say that there's crazy people and religious crazy people, and the religious crazy people are crazier than the crazy people because they think they have God on their sides.

Ian Bremmer:

In the 16th century, a German theology professor nailed some not-so-nicely-worded notes to the door of his local Catholic church, and so became catalyst for the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther's intent was reform, but the effects produced a lasting cultural and, at times, violent divide between Catholics and Protestants. And in the past 500 years, the Catholic Church has not seen that sort of internal upheaval and division, that is, until now.

Ian Bremmer:

Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. I'm Ian Bremmer. This is the place where you can hear extended interviews with the world leaders, newsmakers and experts that I feature on my public television show every week.

Ian Bremmer:

Today on the podcast, things are about to get downright holy. Since that white smoke first billowed out of the Vatican in 2013, and the words "Habemus Papam" rang throughout the world, "We have a Pope," Pope Francis has gone from rockstar to lightning rod. Just as a battle erupted inside the Catholic Church and as the faithful choose sides in a culture war with big implications for everything from gay rights, to climate change, to immigration, I'll interview a priest who has courted controversy of his own and done so with hundreds of thousands of followers in his flock.

Ian Bremmer:

I'm talking about Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest with a massive social media following, and he's taken plenty of heat from within the Catholic Church for his coming out in support of LGBT issues and migrant rights. And his outspokenness is all the more remarkable given his high profile position within the Church. In fact, just last month he had his own private audience with Pope Francis. No doubt the two had plenty to discuss.

Ian Bremmer:

And so did we. So let's get to it. Here's my conversation with Father James Martin.

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Ian Bremmer:

Father Jim Martin, very good to be with you.

Father Jim Martin:

My pleasure.

Ian Bremmer:

You are by far the most formally dressed person that I've had on this show. I just want to let you know.

Ian Bremmer:

No, really. We haven't talked about the Catholic Church. We haven't talked about the Catholic Church in the global order. And you are someone that's very outspoken on a lot of policy issues, so I've been looking forward to talking to you.

Father Jim Martin:

Thank you.

Ian Bremmer:

Let me start with stuff that you've been talking perhaps most about, particularly on LGBT issues, where you've written about it, a book called "Building a Bridge." Obviously an area where the Catholic Church has not been seen as the most progressive or outspoken to where we are in the 21st century. How do you fit in this debate right now?

Father Jim Martin:

Well, I'm trying to get the Catholic Church to treat LGBT people with what the catechism calls, respect, compassion, and sensitivity, and more basically, the gospel value of love and inclusion and welcome. It's pretty basic. It's not really challenging any Church teaching. It's just asking the Church to treat these people as human beings and as beloved children of God, rather than as lepers, which is the way they're treated right now by many people in the Church.

Father Jim Martin:

The first thing to remind people, both the LGBT Catholics and people who are ministering to them, is that they're already Catholic. They're baptized. A lot of them may not agree with some parts of Church teaching, but there are plenty of people in the Catholic Church, married couples who use birth control, people who don't agree with the Church's teaching on the death penalty or on the economy, who disagree with Church teaching. So they are not the only ones that find themselves in this particular case, disagreeing with Church teaching.

Father Jim Martin:

And that does not mean they need to exempt themselves from the Church. You would never say to a couple who believes in birth control, "You're not Catholic. You should never come to the church." Unfortunately, LGBT Catholics are the only ones upon whom we focus this moral microscope on their sexual lives. I think-

Ian Bremmer:

It's something intrinsic to how... You don't define yourself intrinsically. Very few people would say, "Oh, I'm a birth control user." You can say, "I'm a Scorpio." It's just rarely going to go down that path.

Ian Bremmer:

A lot of people are going to say, "I'm a gay man." "I'm a gay woman." It's foundational. It's identity. And if the Church is saying, "That's a disorder", it does seem like it would create a bigger, a much bigger hurdle to make these people feel like they're actually thought of as God's children.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, that's a very good point. And it does, and it is. It is very difficult, which is the reason why we have to welcome LGBT people because those words, "intrinsically disordered" or "objectively disordered," are probably the biggest barrier today for LGBT Catholics to feel not only welcomed by the Church, but loved by God. And so that's even more foundational. Trying to encourage them to see themselves as loved.

Father Jim Martin:

But you're absolutely right. It is a huge barrier for a lot of people. And yet, a lot of people, a lot of LGBT Catholics just set that aside, just as a couple who uses birth control says, "In my conscience, I've decided this is what we're going to do." And they feel comfortable in the church. So there's conscience in there as well. But you're right, it is a barrier for people.

Ian Bremmer:

But leaving aside the Vatican official position is what I asked you before. You personally don't really believe that.

Father Jim Martin:

Well, I'm not going to challenge any Church teaching.

Ian Bremmer:

No, I'm not asking you to challenge. I'm just saying, but that doesn't mean that you're... In other words, you're not saying a gay parishioner's coming to you and saying, "Do you think I have a disorder?" You're not saying, "Yeah, that's right," because the Church tells it.

Father Jim Martin:

Well, part of it is saying to people, look. There's a couple things. Number one, people have to understand the gospel. This is if people come to me and ask me that.

Father Jim Martin:

Second of all, people have to understand Church teaching. You really do have to understand this Church teaching.

Father Jim Martin:

Third of all, which has been lost, you have to understand your conscience. For a Catholic, conscience is the final moral arbiter of the decision, of the moral life. And so, a lot of it's trusting the conscience of the individual himself or herself, or, in the case of a transgender person, themselves. It's not about me. They already know Church teaching. It's about me helping them discern based on their conscience.

Ian Bremmer:

Is some of this a little bit... It's kind of an ironic way to ask the question, but when I see Trump saying some things that many in the GOP tent find objectively ludicrous, but they know they can't say that because they're in the GOP, they're in the Senate, they're in the House. And so you just find a way to say, "Look, let's get to business as usual. We're all fighting for the same sorts of things." Do you sometimes feel that way in the Catholic Church?

Father Jim Martin:

On which issue? On this particular issue?

Ian Bremmer:

On this or on other issues, on a bunch where the Church doesn't move very much, and frequently you find at odds with 21st century life. But you're a part of it, and you're part of it for reasons that are much deeper, in terms of spirituality and humanity and belief in God than what the Pope happens to say today.

Father Jim Martin:

Well, the point is that the fundamental teaching is Jesus. Jesus and the Gospels and Christ has risen. These are the fundamental teachings for me.

Father Jim Martin:

There are some things in the catechism that I may not agree with or may not understand even. It's hard to understand the whole catechism. But the foundation of the faith is about Jesus. And I think what happens, unfortunately, in our country is that we get so bogged down on those particular issues, like intrinsic disorder or the economy, that Catholics feel that they're being marginalized when they should feel welcomed because they believe in Christ. That's what I'm saying, which is not a popular thing to say in the secular media, but we're all about Jesus Christ. And that really supersedes and precedes any of these other discussions. So when someone comes to me and says, "I have a hard time with this part of the catechism," I say, "Well, let's talk about Jesus." That's one line in the catechism, and that does not supersede or negate any of the person's relationship with Jesus.

Ian Bremmer:

The Pope seems a little bit also hard to pin down on this issue, perhaps, again, not surprisingly on the one side. He's on a plane, and he says, "Who am I to judge?" when asked about gays.

Ian Bremmer:

On the other hand, he was helping block gay marriage in Slovakia and adoption rights for gay couples. Do you think this is a place where he... Is he actively searching for a better solution? Is he trying to push the Church on this issue?

Father Jim Martin:

I would say he's trying to push the Church to be more welcoming. That's a very good question. He has certainly been much more open than any of his predecessors. He's the first Pope to ever use the word gay.

Father Jim Martin:

As you said, his five most famous words are, "Who am I to judge?" He has gay friends. He has said to people, a friend of mine, "You were born that way." He's really taken some dramatic steps.

Father Jim Martin:

By the same token, he's also an 82-year-old Argentine former Jesuit provincial, so he is going to come with certain ways of doing things. And he also, he's running the whole Church. Something that might seem really tepid to us, like "Who am I to judge?" In sub-Saharan Africa, or in Latin America, or in India, that's a big deal-

Ian Bremmer:

Absolutely.

Father Jim Martin:

And to say, "You were born that way." I think one of the things we tend to forget in the West is he's speaking to the entire world. While we may say, "Not far enough," or "Not fast enough," for other parts of the world, it's too far and it's too fast.

Ian Bremmer:

Well, no question. First of all, within the United States, there are a lot of people that would say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is well beyond what I believe." But when you talk about places like Uganda, where-

Father Jim Martin:

Oh, yeah, well, where people are getting-

Ian Bremmer:

Getting killed.

Father Jim Martin:

Murdered.

Ian Bremmer:

Literally, it's an execution offense.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, And I think one of the leading edges now for the Vatican is this question of the decriminalization of homosexuality. Where can the Vatican stand with LGBT people, where it's not about same-sex relations or same-sex marriage, but it's just about living. I would say that that would be... I think, I hope that's the next thing that the Vatican does.

Father Jim Martin:

You can be opposed to same-sex marriage and same-sex, but the idea that people would be killed, executed, beaten up, that should be an easy thing for the Church to stand against.

Ian Bremmer:

And even some criminalization of same-sex relations, you'd say the Catholic Church should really be opposed to that.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, because you can be against same-sex marriage, but the idea that you would criminalize these things, that people would go to jail for them, makes no sense. Why not criminalize divorce? There's something that Jesus was actually against in the Gospels. You're going to criminalize birth control?

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, the Catholic Church, I think, has been so unable to listen to these people that it has no sense of these people's real-life problems. And one of them is, overseas, is discrimination that would lead you to get killed. Another in the United States is beatings and suicides, those kinds of things.

Father Jim Martin:

One of the things I'm trying to do is to remind the Church that for many people, these are life issues. In Uganda, for example, it's a life issue, it's a pro-life issue.

Ian Bremmer:

Another life issue we're talking about, big social issues right now, is immigration. Obviously, there are a lot of people, a lot of Christians in the United States, that are saying no mas, too many. Hot button issue for the 2016 election. Will again be in 2020. How we deal with the border, how we deal with illegal immigration in the United States. Should the Catholic Church have a perspective, a policy perspective on immigration in the US?

Father Jim Martin:

Well, the Catholic Church already does. The US Bishops Conference has been very strong in terms of defending the rights of migrants and worldwide refugees. I worked for two years in East Africa with refugees all over East Africa. It comes down to Jesus's invitation to welcome the stranger, period. It's pretty clear.

Father Jim Martin:

I always tell people, "You can be Christian, but this is what's in the Gospels." And it doesn't take a whole lot of interpretation. Jesus is very clear about welcoming the stranger, the alien, the foreigner, the migrant. So take it or leave it.

Ian Bremmer:

So, Trump and Pope Francis have had some run-ins. In fact, in 2017, Trump actually criticized Pope Francis as being a very political person. And the Pope actually came back and said, "Yes, as a matter of fact, I am." What does that mean? What does it mean that Pope Francis is political? And how should the papacy embrace politics?

Father Jim Martin:

He's not political in the sense that he is Democrat or Republican, or he believes in one political party in Europe. But the gospel, preaching the gospel sometimes has political implications. If you preach about caring for the poor or caring for the sick or helping the refugee of the stranger, that's going to have political implications. There's going to be one party that supports that, and one party that doesn't.

Father Jim Martin:

So I think his point is, "If I am seen as political, so be it." But he does not set out to be political or partisan. He sets out to preach the gospel. If that disturbs people on one side of the aisle, then so be it.

Ian Bremmer:

He has gotten involved directly in trying to help resolve some conflicts, certainly directly in Cuba, in Iran, indirectly in Venezuela. What's the record recently of the Catholic Church in inserting itself in these conflicts?

Father Jim Martin:

Well, it's interesting. You say recently. I think someone said to me once, the Catholic Church has been dealing with leaders since Charlemagne's time, so it goes back a long time. I think over time-

Ian Bremmer:

Well, selling indulgences is useful, right?

Father Jim Martin:

There's that too. But I would say in general, he is seen, Francis is seen as a real moral voice. There was an article recently in The Guardian of him being the last moral voice. I think he's seen as above politics. I think he's been pretty effective, I think just... for example, when he visited the Holy Land and was able to reach out to both Israelis and Palestinians in a very sensitive way. I'm not a politician, so I couldn't judge it. But I think he's been pretty effective.

Ian Bremmer:

Do you feel, because of the extraordinary opulence of the Vatican itself, some of the banking scandals they've had recently at a time when so many people are turning against anything that shows a concentration of wealth, how much more scrutiny do you find yourself under, do you find your colleagues under, as a consequence in terms of trying to make sure that you're not alienating or disenfranchising people that think that you are other?

Father Jim Martin:

Oh, that's interesting. In terms of wealth or in terms of-

Ian Bremmer:

Yeah.

Father Jim Martin:

Well, I take a vow of poverty.

Ian Bremmer:

I know.

Father Jim Martin:

So I own nothing. That doesn't really... I think most people understand that, that I'm not in it for the money. All of my royalties for my books goes to the Jesuits. I have no money.

Father Jim Martin:

But you mean more in terms of the Church?

Ian Bremmer:

I'm talking about power. Of course.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, I think the sex abuse scandals have made it more difficult than anything else. I think it's less a sense of people's suspicion of religion in general, more suspicion of the Catholic Church and priests. I think that would be more difficult for me and more difficult for my colleagues.

Ian Bremmer:

[It] has been an environment where so many people that are really believed in as leaders are having a harder time showing that they have the characters that merit that authority. And the Pope was seen as a rockstar when he ascended and less so now, in significant part because of the reaction and the revulsion to so many of these sex scandals. What's the impact it's having on the Church?

Father Jim Martin:

Oh, it's devastating. It's hard to quantify. Certainly you have concentric circles of people who are affected. You have victims, obviously affected the most, and then family members. And then parishioners in parishes where priests have been removed. And then parishioners in dioceses where bishops have shuffled people around or themselves have been removed.

Father Jim Martin:

It's very personal for people. It's a huge let-down for people. It's sin. I always tell people, "The effects of real serious sin are just, they radiate out." So it's not just the victim. In a sense, it's the whole Church.

Father Jim Martin:

Secondarily, you have people who are affected by the loss of money from the dioceses. The dioceses pay out money, which means that they have to, which they should, but that also means that they have less money for services. And so the poor and schools and hospitals. So it really does show you the destruction, the destructive value of sin, I think.

Ian Bremmer:

Why did it happen? Why was it so widespread? And why was it covered up for so long?

Father Jim Martin:

The main reason is that we had these guys in the priesthood or in religious life, in religious orders, who were sick and who committed pedophilia, who should have never been accepted. That's one of the main reasons. Once discovered, they should have never been allowed to continue in the priesthood. So you have that.

Father Jim Martin:

I think most people-

Ian Bremmer:

But it's not a few. It's an extraordinarily widespread problem.

Father Jim Martin:

It is. But by this... I don't want to excuse it. It's roughly the same percentage as in the general population. Nonetheless, even one would be too many. Most people can understand that. Or you have these people who are, they're pedophiles, and they have this sickness.

Father Jim Martin:

I think the second reason is some stuff that people do not excuse, which is bishops who didn't understand how to confront these guys who were mendacious, who covered up. You have a system of clericalism, which I think you could describe as someone taking the word of the priest more than the victim or the parent. You have this system that says that we shouldn't "scandalize" people by bringing these things out into the open. You have bishops who were afraid of-

Ian Bremmer:

Because it'll hurt the church more broadly.

Father Jim Martin:

Right, and it would scandalize the faithful. You have bishops who themselves don't know how to deal with pedophilia and these crimes. They're not equipped to deal with it. They don't know what to do legally. They don't know what to do psychologically. Even if they do know what to do, which is to remove these people, they have a hard time confronting them.

Father Jim Martin:

So it's very systemic. But at heart, it's an institution that was unable to address these men and remove them immediately, once they had done something like that. Also to turn them over to civil authorities, who in many cases would turn a blind eye. "Oh, Father's okay."

Father Jim Martin:

You also have - this is not blaming them - but back in the seventies and eighties, you had psychologists and psychiatrists saying that this was a curable thing. Pedophilia was seen as more curable. You could be treated and then placed back in the ministry. Well, we know that that's not true anymore.

Father Jim Martin:

It's this horrible mixture of all this sin that's going on. It really defies description though. There's not one explanation for it.

Ian Bremmer:

Are you worried about the Catholic Church losing ground to evangelicalism? I was in Brazil recently, and you see, you go north, and the biggest buildings in towns, football stadium, evangelical stadium. That's what you're talking about. As the Church continues to expand, you see massive growth there. You see massive growth in the United States. Why is it happening? What's the Catholic Church doing about it, if anything?

Father Jim Martin:

I think in Latin America, it's less about the sex abuse crisis, although that may be more true now, in the last couple of years, and more about a Church that I think got complacent and arrogant and assumed that, "Well, we're the Church, and we're in Brazil or in Venezuela or in wherever. And of course, you're all Catholic, and so you're going to come to the Church." So therefore it did very little in terms of outreach and welcome. I think what people are finding in the evangelical churches is this sense of personal welcome.

Father Jim Martin:

I think that the Catholic Church has to learn from that. Yeah, I am worried because it says that we're not doing something right down there. Now there's still millions and millions of Catholics in Latin America. But you're right, they've made inroads.

Father Jim Martin:

I don't like to say it as a battle, but I think it's important to see what the Catholic Church could learn from these groups. And I think a lot of it, it's about welcome and personal outreach.

Ian Bremmer:

Everyone's a little crazy these days.

Father Jim Martin:

Except you and me.

Ian Bremmer:

Politics are crazy, religious strife. We're all a little crazy. Some people more crazy than others. You've said that some of the craziest people out there are religious people.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, I like to say that there's crazy people and religious crazy people. And the religious crazy people are crazier than the crazy people because they think they have God on their sides. That's the problem. It's not just crazy. It's "I'm crazy, and God is on my side. And I'm a prophet, and I'm going to tell you what to do, because God told me."

Ian Bremmer:

"And if you don't believe in my way, you're going to hell."

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, pretty much.

Ian Bremmer:

Which I was told, by the way, when I was in school. I hope that's not true anymore.

Father Jim Martin:

It is. We definitely do not tell people they're going to hell.

Ian Bremmer:

If they don't accept the one true Jesus.

Father Jim Martin:

We definitely don't tell people that.

Ian Bremmer:

That's really good. So can people be too Catholic?

Father Jim Martin:

Well, what do you mean by too Catholic?

Ian Bremmer:

Well, crazy about Catholic. Other Catholic, people who aren't Catholic, everything's about you've got to be a part of, you have to believe everything I believe.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, I think there are Catholics, I like to say, that are so Catholic, they barely seem Christian anymore, that are just all about judging other people and coming out against other people, especially on social media. You see this. "You're a heretic, you're an apostate, you're a false Catholic."

Ian Bremmer:

You get a fair amount of those.

Father Jim Martin:

Oh, I got a lot of that. I think I got most of it.

Father Jim Martin:

Yeah, it's people going against the gospels, where Jesus says, "Judge not." That's pretty clear too. We're not the judges. God is the judge.

Father Jim Martin:

So yeah, I think people can mistake Catholicism for basically a religion of a rule book and black and white and ticking off boxes. It's about an encounter with a person, Jesus. It's about an encounter with a mystery, who is Jesus. It's not about whether or not you tick off these boxes. It's not like taking a driving test.

Father Jim Martin:

Unfortunately, and I don't know where it came from, but a lot of Catholics, especially in this country, and these are the ones that oppose Francis, see it as rules. It's ironic, because you read the gospels, and Jesus comes into contact with some of the scribes and Pharisees, and this is exactly what he rejects, this kind of obsession with legalism.

Ian Bremmer:

So what's an issue that matters to you, that you're having a real issue, that you're having a challenge in terms of your conscience telling you what would be the right way to handle it?

Father Jim Martin:

Well. You want me to narrow it down?

Ian Bremmer:

Yeah, sure. Give me one. What comes to mind?

Father Jim Martin:

I think the question for me would be - this may sound a little banal - but the question for me is how political should I be in a world where I am supposed to be apolitical? For example, where is it right to actually critique a president by name? Where is it right to say that this is evil versus, in general, talk about refugees? When does a person have to stand up and say, "This individual is evil," or "This individual is being led by the evil spirit." Where is one colluding by not saying that? I often think of... Look at the great people-

Ian Bremmer:

You could say it about Kim Jong Un. I doubt you'd have much of a problem, calling him out for some of his behaviors.

Father Jim Martin:

See, I wouldn't say that.

Ian Bremmer:

You wouldn't?

Father Jim Martin:

I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't say this person. I try to avoid the ad hominem. I might say that this policy is-

Ian Bremmer:

This system.

Father Jim Martin:

This system or this decision that he made. I was thinking of the Hitler analogy. At what point does the priest have to speak out against the individual? And maybe the answer is never. But I admire so many of the Catholic priests, and there are a lot... Rupert Meyer and a lot of the Catholic resistance, someone like Dietrich Bonhoeffer. They spoke out against Hitler. That's a real moral question for me. And I'm being inarticulate because I'm not sure where I stand on that.

Ian Bremmer:

You have not come out individually against the present administration?

Father Jim Martin:

No, and I don't think that... No, and I haven't. And I think it's really important. I think one of the reasons-

Ian Bremmer:

What is it that you're struggling with? You're saying, "I'm not sure how I feel about X."

Father Jim Martin:

When would it be the right time to do that, if ever? For example, I admire Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of my heroes, and Rupert Meyers, a Jesuit, for specifically naming things. I don't know if I'm in that situation. I don't know if I'll ever be in that situation. Yeah, that's a moral question. Actually-

Ian Bremmer:

It's a big one. It's not banal. It's one of the ones that you struggle with.

Father Jim Martin:

It's big, but it's also, it's actually not something that comes up every day, because it's easy to speak out against particular issues. I can be an advocate for LGBT people and for migrants and refugees without batting an eye.

Father Jim Martin:

The other reason, let me argue on the other side now. It's actually important not to do that because you end up splitting the Church. For example, if I were a priest in the pulpit, and I get up, and I say, "You should all vote Republican," or "You should all vote Democrat," that's terrible. It makes the Church political. Frankly, we're not supposed to be doing that anyway because of our tax-exempt status.

Father Jim Martin:

But it also splits your congregation, so that's why I try to avoid it. But I sometimes look at these people that I admire, and they were pretty blunt. I think about that.

Ian Bremmer:

Father Jim Martin, great to be with you.

Father Jim Martin:

My pleasure. Thank you.

Ian Bremmer:

That's our show this week. We'll be right back here next week, same place, same time. Unless you're watching on social media, in which cases, it's wherever you happen to be. Don't miss it. In the meantime, check us out at gzeromedia.com.

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