Listen: As Beijing asserts further control of Hong Kong, threatening the "one country, two systems" policy the city has known since 1997, pro-democracy protesters and lawmakers alike are fighting to preserve the freedoms they have known. One of them is Dennis Kwok, a legislator who has drawn the ire of China's government and says he and his compatriots fear "redress" for speaking out against increasingly "draconian" laws being forced upon the city.
In an in-depth conversation with Ian Bremmer, Kwok explains Hong Kong's precarious situation and uncertain future.
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Dennis Kwok:
Let the world see how ugly they can get, but the Hong Kong people will not give up.
Ian Bremmer:
Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. Here you'll find extended versions of the interviews from my show on public television. I'm Ian Bremmer. And today, I'm focusing on Hong Kong, why China is consolidating power amidst the pandemic, leaving the future of the former British colony in question. I'll sit down with an opposition lawmaker who says this is the big one.
Ian Bremmer:
Dennis Kwok is a pro-democracy lawmaker in Hong Kong, who Beijing has accused of trying to obstruct the changes. Let's get right to it.
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Ian Bremmer:
Dennis Kwok direct from Hong Kong. Very good to be with you, sir.
Dennis Kwok:
Thank you for having me.
Ian Bremmer:
So, to start off is that we have this new national security law that Beijing is essentially forcing Hong Kong to adopt. You said the following, I want to quote it, "This is the end of Hong Kong. This is the end of one country, two systems. Make no mistake about it, that Beijing, the Central People's Government, has completely breached its promise to the Hong Kong people." So as one of Hong Kong's most vocal pro-democracy leaders, I have to ask you, if this is the end of Hong Kong, then what's your next move?
Dennis Kwok:
That's a very good question. I think the international community needs to see what is happening to Hong Kong, and what is supposed to be a 50-year guarantee of a high degree of autonomy has come to an end only after just 23 years. The Hong Kong people was promised democracy. We still don't have democracy. We were promised our freedom, and now they're trying to take away our freedom by directly legislating for this national security law and imposing it directly on Hong Kong, bypassing all our institutions, all our process, which is not supposed to happen, but it's happening right before our eyes and the world needs to know and needs to watch very carefully.
Ian Bremmer:
Why do you think it's happening?
Dennis Kwok:
I think it's part of this strategy by the People's Republic of China in trying to assert itself onto people within the country. And also, you can see that they are doing the same so-called wolf warrior diplomacy around the world, asserting themselves everywhere.
Ian Bremmer:
For Western viewers that aren't familiar with how Hong Kong and how your government in particular operates, explain why certain members of Hong Kong's leadership like the chief executive, Carrie Lam, would be putting Beijing's interest before Hong Kong's.
Dennis Kwok:
Because she got her job because of Beijing. She got her job because Beijing appointed her, and her job depends on Beijing's continued support. And I think it's become very clear that this Hong Kong government, this administration, is nothing but a puppet of the Central People's Government, and the so-called high degree of autonomy doesn't apply anymore. I'll give you one example.
Dennis Kwok:
The Hong Kong government was asked a few weeks ago to comment on a very important article in our Constitution, the basic law, saying that no Central People's Government's department should interfere into the domestic affairs of Hong Kong. Now this article is very important and is there for a good reason because we don't want Chinese authorities to be intermeddling with what is our domestic Hong Kong affairs.
Dennis Kwok:
Now the government put out the statement, explaining its view on this article. And then within two hours, it had to back down twice and change its basically free statements within two hours, backpedalling from that stance, which is very clear as everyone's understanding, to saying that the China Liaison Office and other Central People's Government's department can meddle in Hong Kong domestic affairs and that Article 22 don't apply to them. This is how bad things have become.
Ian Bremmer:
Now you've been quite outspoken. You're a member of Hong Kong's legislative council. And you've drawn the ire both of Beijing and of the chief executive of Hong Kong on more than one occasion. One headline I could cite were your efforts to block the passage of certain laws including a bill that would criminalize disrespecting the Chinese national anthem led to an all out brawl on the legislative floor. Explain to our viewers how that happened, what happened there?
Dennis Kwok:
Let me be clear. I was simply presiding over a meeting of the House committee, which is one of the most important committees in the legislative council. And I was holding the meeting strictly in accordance with the rules of procedure of the legislative council. What happened was, there was a political deadlock between my colleagues on the Democratic side and my colleagues on the pro-establishment, pro-Beijing side. They couldn't agree on how to elect a chairman for the House committee.
Dennis Kwok:
Now my job is to hold the meeting in accordance with the rules of procedure and nothing else. But Beijing accused me of filibustering. They accused me of misconduct in public office and also have breached my oath when I took office. All these allegations came to a naught. Ultimately, they resolved it by taking away my power to continue to preside over the meetings as chairman, and they broke the deadlock by using some legal procedures which allowed them to operate the legislative council in accordance with how they want to do it.
Dennis Kwok:
Now apparently, the reason why the pro-Beijing and the government is so anxious to break the deadlock is because they want to pass the national anthem law, which will be probably passed next week, which criminalizes anyone who show disrespect to the national anthem.
Ian Bremmer:
Why has that been such a big issue in Hong Kong? I mean, Lord knows, you've had all sorts of mass dissent and unrest over the course of the past year. It feels like, of all the things that you would be focusing on, that Beijing would want to get done, a law that criminalizes disrespecting the national anthem might not be top of the agenda.
Dennis Kwok:
When we are going through COVID-19, when we have gone through a whole year of political unrest and facing a possible economic recession, I would've thought that the Hong Kong government should focus on things like how to get the economy going, or how to reduce unemployment, or how to help Hong Kong generate more businesses, et cetera. But instead of focusing on those important issues, the first thing they want to do is to pass a national anthem law, criminalizing people who show disrespect to the national anthem. Clearly, the agenda is now being set by Beijing, and the Hong Kong government puts Beijing agenda ahead of everything else. And this is what's happening.
Ian Bremmer:
Do you talk with any of these guys socially? I mean, the pro-Beijing legislators, you're obviously there in the same group.
Dennis Kwok:
Not so much these days, I'm afraid. We used to have a better communication, but unfortunately, because of the events of the past 12 months, I don't think there is a constructive dialogue going on within the legislative council.
Ian Bremmer:
So literally, there are no legislators you talked to on the pro-mainland side?
Dennis Kwok:
I wouldn't go as far as that, but there are obviously people I've known for years. But it is... What I find is that, even though privately they might agree with the unreasonable move by Beijing and by the Hong Kong government, outwardly, they are afraid to take that position because they are afraid of redress from the People's Republic of China.
Ian Bremmer:
I'm asking just because, I mean, it's always good in these environments to get some back channel. And again, as you say, you are dealing with coronavirus, in fact, quite successfully in the context of the rest of the world. What do they say to you about what the agenda is?
Dennis Kwok:
The agenda is to follow Beijing's instruction, to pass these laws so that they feel they could assert their will on the Hong Kong people. And I think that is the top of the Central People's Government's agenda. Since they changed the directorship of the China Liaison Office and also the Hong Kong Macau Affairs Office, which are the two departments in charge of Hong Kong affairs, they've been very assertive, very aggressive in pushing their national agenda.
Dennis Kwok:
And ironic thing is, you mentioned COVID-19. In fact, Hong Kong has handled COVID-19 relatively well, as you said, but also, as a community, we were breaking off from some of the worst protests that we saw last year, that some of the protests were cooling off and people were staying home because of COVID-19. If anything, they should be using this opportunity to heal, to start to bring society back together and not try to enact even more Draconian laws. And you will remember, last year, what started the protests was when they tried to pass that extradition bill, which would allow Hong Kong citizens to be sent to China for trial. And that was what started it. And instead of learning from that lesson, they are doing exactly the same thing, but this time, even more Draconian, which is to pass the national security law in Beijing and impose it on Hong Kong.
Ian Bremmer:
Let's talk about what China is doing right now on the ground in Hong Kong. I mean, there's obviously a pretty assertive PR campaign with local business people, with their own legislators. I mean, door to door canvassers. Is it working?
Dennis Kwok:
Well, new poll just came up, showing that 64% of the population are against this national security law. And I expect, as the details are rolled out, more and more people would be against this law.
Dennis Kwok:
Now the important thing to remember, Ian, is that we don't even have the details of this legislative proposal. We don't even know what's going to be in there. There are some big headings put out by Beijing, subversions, sedition, secession, foreign interference. And foreign interference is the one that I'm most concerned about, because what does it mean when they try to outlaw foreign interference in Hong Kong? Hong Kong is an international city. The fact that we are having this conversation is a sign of this international uniqueness of Hong Kong's nature. Now, is this conversation going to be illegal going forward after they pass this law? It'll be a very sad day for Hong Kong if all international engagement and activities have to stop because they are so-called foreign interference.
Ian Bremmer:
Now, the other side of that question, I guess, if we have no idea what's in the legislation, then, I mean, all of the presumptions that this ends the one state, two systems, there's no more Hong Kong autonomy, how can we actually say that until we know what's in the legislation?
Dennis Kwok:
That's a very good question. The reason why we say that this is the end of one country, two system is, number one, as a matter of principle, we should be legislating this law ourselves because we have the constitutional power to legislate for our own affairs. This is clearly stated in the basic law, especially Article 23, and we are supposed to have our own legislative power. Not only that, what they're proposing to do is to have national security agents to actually operate in Hong Kong. Now, the reason why this is scary is that, you may remember the billionaire who disappeared from the Four Seasons Hotel a couple of years ago. Apparently, he was abducted by the national state's security agent.
Ian Bremmer:
That would've been illegal under present Hong Kong law?
Dennis Kwok:
Would've been illegal. And also, the book sellers were apparently also kidnapped by the national state security agents. And also, looking at, well, how they interpret national security as a matter of concept in China is extremely broad. It could be financial instability. It could be journalism, criticizing the government, a very loose definition of what is official state secrets. So everything could be endangering national security. So you can bang on the fact that they will have a very loose definition sort of imposed and will be as loose and as wide as possible, which is against the common law principle, which you and I understand, that in the common law, when you have a crime, the provision needs to be very precise as to what you can do, what you can't do, so that we can organize our own lives and behavior so that we don't step on the wrong side of the law. But this is not the way Chinese law operates.
Ian Bremmer:
So I understand, the legislation itself should not be made in Beijing. It shouldn't be passed from Beijing. It should be done by Hong Kong's own legislatures. That is a change. You're saying that it's a problem because, in the past, look, mainland China has engaged in these illegal activities with their own national security forces in Hong Kong. That's a somewhat different argument, in the sense that you're saying that, well, the Chinese government pays no attention to Hong Kong law anyway. I mean, if that's true, again, slippery slope, you can say, this is one more step that just erodes Hong Kong's independence and we shouldn't tolerate it. But you can also say, from outside, they weren't actually adhering to it anyway, so why the show?
Dennis Kwok:
At least for now, in Hong Kong, we legislate for our own laws. We have our own Hong Kong courts to interpret those laws and apply them.
Dennis Kwok:
Now, we don't know whether the Hong Kong courts will have jurisdiction to even interpret or to apply these national security laws. There are some NPC, National People's Congress, delegates saying that, "Oh, we should have special Chinese courts set up to deal with these national security laws," which are a very scary suggestion, because one country, two systems means, as I said, our own legislative power, our own processes, and also our own judicial process. If I commit a crime in Hong Kong, I will be tried by courts in Hong Kong, which to be fair to the judges in Hong Kong, a lot of them are still very professional and very independent. And a lot of the people I know who are working in the courts, they do their very best to apply the law and try to do justice every day.
Dennis Kwok:
So at least there's some comfort that the courts in Hong Kong will try to deal with anyone in accordance with due process. And as you know, there's no such concept of due process in China.
Ian Bremmer:
How broad is the definition and extension of what kind of national security laws could be breached? Under what conditions would it apply? These are all things that actually would matter to you a lot, as we see the legislation coming out, yes?
Dennis Kwok:
That's why I say that... You asked me what's next. I don't think we should give up. I think international community have been putting a lot of pressure on China to say, look, this is not the way things should be under the Sino-British Joint Declaration or the basic law. And hopefully, they would see this. Although outwardly, they will never admit that. They would say, this is foreign interference, get away. But I believe, inside, they do care very much what you guys on the international stage have to say. Because remember, last year, they kept saying that, "Look, all these international statements of protests is not going to change an iota of things, because we are going to pass this extradition bill, whether you like it or not. Get out and get lost." But at the end, look what happened, they actually withdrew the bill because, I believe, because due to no small part the international pressure that Hong Kong and China was getting at the time. So I don't think we should give up.
Ian Bremmer:
The perception in the West is they withdrew that piece of legislation overwhelmingly because of the courage and persistence of the people of Hong Kong, not because of international pressure.
Dennis Kwok:
Well, from those of us in Hong Kong, we know that they didn't care when even 2 million people came out to march. They refused to withdraw the bill. Until later on, when the international attention was fully focused on Hong Kong, and that was when they begin to see, okay, maybe this is not worth doing.
Dennis Kwok:
Now, I believe they would soldier on with this national security law, but the devil is in the details. I think that is what the community here will be focusing on, and I hope the international community will also focus on the details of the bill, to make sure that it is, at least, I mean, you can't be sending people, allowing national security agents to grab Dennis Kwok and then just take him across the border and tried by Chinese courts. That would be outrageous.
Ian Bremmer:
Yeah. We don't want them to grab Dennis Kwok and just take him across the border. Let's stipulate that for this conversation.
Dennis Kwok:
I hope so. I don't want that either.
Ian Bremmer:
It'll be harder to have this conversation if they do that. There's no question.
Ian Bremmer:
So from the international response, there's been a lot of talk in the United States. If this is the end of autonomy and end of one country, two systems, then we should end the special trade status that we afford Hong Kong. Are you saying we should really wait to make that decision until we understand what's in the legislation, that you want to see pressure against Beijing right now, but not necessarily concretely what the responses are until we know what it is?
Dennis Kwok:
It's a very painful question for those of us who love Hong Kong. On the one hand, we want Hong Kong to be this international financial trading hub, this great city where there's freedom and liberty under one country, two systems. But if Beijing, I've already won, two years ago, I've been traveling to the United States quite a lot and I have been telling my friends back home, and also to the Hong Kong government, if you continue down this path of eroding one country, two systems, one day, and that day may come very soon, in which we will lose the trading privilege. But guess what? They don't care.
Ian Bremmer:
So far, you've had Pompeo and President Trump making very tough statements, certainly threatening the mainland Chinese on the back of this, and threatening Hong Kong directly. But they haven't yet taken very significant concrete steps. I'm asking you, do you think that's the right approach, or should they be removing, is the appropriate thing to remove, that special trade status now?
Dennis Kwok:
I think the natural consequence, as I said, of the move by China to impose this national security law, and over the years, how the Hong Kong government just doesn't care about one country, two system. Some people in Hong Kong say, "Hey, they deserve this, guys. They deserve having the trading privilege revoked." And also, I think, you can't blame the international community for calling out what China is doing. So-
Ian Bremmer:
Understandable.
Dennis Kwok:
I don't know whether the president will roll out these measures and how fast he would. It is damaging for Hong Kong, but at the same time, it may have the force in giving the Hong Kong government and the Central People's Government a pause to say, "Hey, if they are really going to cancel the special trading status and affect Hong Kong as an IFC, is this a price worth paying?" But I don't know how they will answer this question. That is my point, Ian. I really don't know.
Ian Bremmer:
I'm just asking you, and I'll move on after this, but I'm just asking you, given that this is a real choice, a real discussion happening in my Congress right now, do you think it is more effective for the Americans to end it now, the special trade status, or threaten the Chinese government that they will, depending on this legislation?
Dennis Kwok:
All I'm saying is that, if they really are going to end the trading status because of what's happening, this is the natural consequences of China's actions and I would not blame them.
Ian Bremmer:
So you do know, you have said that the Chinese government doesn't really care. Obviously, Hong Kong has far less economic importance as a financial center for Beijing than it did in 1997. It obviously has a lot less importance in terms of facilitating exports than it used to. Is Hong Kong just not economically important enough? Is that a lot of what's happening here and so Beijing no longer feels like it matters, they can take the hit?
Dennis Kwok:
I think I would disagree with that, Ian, because if you look at foreign direct investment, 70% of FDI that goes into China goes through Hong Kong.
Ian Bremmer:
Hong Kong, yeah.
Dennis Kwok:
And also, Hong Kong is one of the top equity financing center in the world. It beats sometimes London and New York. And when your Congress and your president is threatening to push back on Chinese-listed companies away from America, where does these Chinese company go? They go back to Hong Kong because Hong Kong is the best way in which for them to re-list and to continue to attract international capital markets. So I think all this talk that Hong Kong is not important anymore, especially when you have the world sort of attitudes changing towards China, and that you have this US-China trade war going on, and you have global economic uncertainty, is this the time to cut off Hong Kong as their only true international financial center in China? I think it'll be foolish for anyone to make that assumption. But again, I don't know their line of logic. I mean, they seem to think on a different line of logic.
Ian Bremmer:
And how do you think... I mean, so far, the level of dissent on the streets in Hong Kong is not close to the 2 million that you saw when you were arguing against, pushing back ultimately successfully, against the extradition legislation. What do you think the mood is like for the people today, and why are we not seeing much larger mass protests?
Dennis Kwok:
Well, partly, it's because they're using the social distancing rules, because of COVID-19, to stop people from coming up. Now, last week, one day alone, they arrested more than, I think, 500 people, in different parts of Hong Kong, because people were trying to gather to protest against the national anthem law, and the police were unhinged. They were shooting at people with pepper guns, randomly arresting. Even school kids were seen arrested and brought up to the police car. So they are really pressing hard.
Dennis Kwok:
Now, a very important date is coming up. The June 4th commemoration is coming up this week. For the first time in 23 years of Hong Kong post-hand over history, they are not allowing the June 4th commemoration from going ahead. Now people will still come out, I suspect. People will still want to express their feelings and commemoration. I don't know what's going to happen, but it looks like there will be another massive confrontation.
Ian Bremmer:
I mean, here in the United States, of course, we have lots of protests in the middle of a pandemic. How much concern do you have that Hong Kong will no longer be such a success story on the COVID side, because this is happening now. And again, there's a lot of mask wearing. There's a lot of social distancing. You're used to that in Hong Kong. You've experienced SARS, MERS much more directly. But still, if you're getting hundreds of thousands of people out on the streets as they're changing the character of your territory, a pandemic is not the best time to do that.
Dennis Kwok:
Correct, Ian. I think the... Hong Kong people has been very vigilant. We started wearing masks in January, even before the government tell us that we have to wear a mask, because they were saying, at the time, said, there's no need to wear a mask because they don't like people wearing masks in mass protests. But the Hong Kong people just don't trust them and went out to get masks on their own. There's this massive global search for masks. And that is why Hong Kong people are so resilient. They're so resourceful.
Dennis Kwok:
And I think, even if the Hong Kong people cannot gather physically together, I think there will be other activities, other ways in which they will try to show their dissent. Now there's a very important election coming up in September. The Hong Kong people will not forget any of this. Now, okay, fine, some people say, well, they will cancel the election in September. Well, let them do that. Let the world see how ugly they can get. But the Hong Kong people will not give up.
Ian Bremmer:
Have you had any reason thus far to be concerned about your personal safety?
Dennis Kwok:
Well, all of my colleagues on the Democratic side are concerned about their personal safety. Well, my colleagues, some of them have been beaten up by thugs. Some of them have been followed and beaten up. Some of them have been charged and prosecuted for what they do in the legislative council. And so they are coming after us, hard and fast.
Ian Bremmer:
So, Dennis, I mean, this is a very challenging time in the world, and it's a very challenging time in Hong Kong. When you look at the next months and what's ahead of you, what's giving you hope right now? What's driving you forward?
Dennis Kwok:
The Hong Kong people. When I walk down the street, a lot of people would give me the thumbs up. They would say, "Jiāyóu," and we're getting a lot of messages of support. The Hong Kong people is not giving up. And if they don't give up, as their representative, we must soldier on. And although there is not a clear pathway out at the moment, but I think we just have to keep buggering on, using Churchill's famous phrase. We cannot give up.
Ian Bremmer:
Dennis Kwok, God speed. Good to talk to you.
Dennis Kwok:
Good talking to you, Ian. Thank you.
Ian Bremmer:
That's it for today's edition of the GZERO World Podcast. Like what you've heard? I hope so. Come check us out at gzeromedia.com, and sign up for our newsletter, Signal.
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This GZERO World Podcast is brought to you by Walmart. At Walmart, we appreciate the trust our customers put in us, to provide access to healthier, affordable food for their families, to make their lives easier by serving them when and how they want, and by investing in the communities where we operate. Learn more at corporate.walmart.com.
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