Podcast: Rwandan President Paul Kagame

Transcript

Listen: Remember when President Trump allegedly referred to many African nations as "sh&#hole countries"? Soon after in Davos, he met with a prominent leader of one of those countries: Rwandan president and head of the African Union, Paul Kagame.

In a wide ranging and candid interview, President Kagame recounts that somewhat...sensitive...conversation and responds to his own critics who point to an increasingly authoritarian government in Kigali.

TRANSCRIPT: Rwandan President Paul Kagame

Paul Kagame:

The less attention other parts of the world pay to Africa, the better for Africa.

Ian Bremmer:

Hi, I'm Ian Bremmer, and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast. I'm host the weekly show "GZERO World" on Facebook Watch. In this podcast, we share extended versions of the big interviews from that show. This week I sit down with Paul Kagame, the current president of Rwanda. As commander of the Rwandan patriotic front, he helped end the genocide in 1994, and as president, he's turned Rwanda into one of Africa's biggest economic success stories.

Ian Bremmer:

Today, I'll ask him about his country's economic transformation, the political upheaval currently engulfing some other parts of the continent and a certain vulgar remark made by another president not too long ago. Let's get to it.

Announcer:

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Ian Bremmer:

I'm here in Munich with President Paul Kagame of Rwanda, also head of the African Union. Delighted to see you here, sir.

Paul Kagame:

Pleasure. Thank you, Ian.

Ian Bremmer:

I want to start just with the state of Africa because a lot's going on right now. We've had a surprise transition in Zimbabwe. We've had maybe a little less of a surprise transition in South Africa. We've had another surprise transition in Ethiopia. Do you see some common thread going through all of these changes?

Paul Kagame:

Well, there are more changes even than that.

Ian Bremmer:

Is it getting harder for a leader if he's running his economy into the ground now in Africa than it was five, 10 years ago?

Paul Kagame:

Oh yes. If you run the economy to the ground, maybe it really takes you down with it. There's no doubt because Africa is more and more integrated in the rest of the world. This connectedness really informs people and drives people to do things they want to do and raises even the level of aspiration. And there is always going to be one way or the other where that correction is made so that the demands and aspirations of these people are met.

Ian Bremmer:

Now, that certainly helps to explain Zimbabwe in a big way. It certainly helps to explain South Africa. Ethiopia of course, has been talked about as one of the economic miracles in Africa.

Paul Kagame:

Ethiopia still remains a good performer in terms of the kinds of developments that have taken place and the growth of the economy and [they are] doing really a lot of good things for their people. There's no doubt. But at the same time, they may raise other questions from within and then seeing said, "Okay, this is fine. We are doing this, but maybe there are political issues here we have to address." The fact that, for example, the prime minister resigned. The thing... that's a very healthy thing. That means, that means he didn't stay and say, no, let's fight it out and the winner in the end takes all or something. He said, no. Okay. If my resignation, having been there and associated with everything that was going on, is going to open up for more integration of different actors that act in different interests for the people of Ethiopia, if that's what [that] means, I'm giving in for that. I think that's a good thing.

Ian Bremmer:

So you know what I have to ask of course, in that regard, which is that, you have now been president with one of the most exceptional economic stories in all of Africa, but also one that's been criticized for being too politically closed. Do you take any personal lessons from what's happening in Ethiopia right now? Does it change the way you think at all?

Paul Kagame:

I think always you are going to look at any situation anywhere in the world and want to relate it with whatever is happening, even with you and your own country. What makes my country different, as of now at least, is that so far so good with what the country is doing, and the measure is simply on the expressions of the same people. The difference with what has happened in my country and with any other case you may refer to is that when it came to 2017, I actually wanted to go.

Ian Bremmer:

To end your term. That's it.

Paul Kagame:

The change that happened in the Constitution had entirely nothing to do with me, but it had to do with me in terms that it affected me in terms of whether we leave or stay. But my choice was to leave.

Ian Bremmer:

But you're legitimately very popular in Rwanda right now. Right now, not just in '17, right now. Very clear. Why take tough measures against the media in your country when there's already so much support for you?

Paul Kagame:

You know Rwanda is the most connected country actually presently in Africa, right?

Ian Bremmer:

Yeah.

Paul Kagame:

People have their mobile phones, they're connected. If you look at the things they say on their platforms, there is no censoring, there is no blocking of anything. So when they talk about the media, I don't know which media people are talking about.

Ian Bremmer:

Another measure of success for a leader is what comes after. And I wonder how you're thinking about the next generation, grooming a set of leaders who will be able to take the country forward, especially if you were ready to step down a couple years ago, what were you thinking about who's next and is the country ready post-Kagame?

Paul Kagame:

Actually, I didn't even have to think so hard about who is next in terms of making it particular.

Ian Bremmer:

Not one person. I mean, [inaudible].

Paul Kagame:

This is what I'm saying. So I was comfortable that from the pool of people we have, actually we would find one that is, from my position, that was my viewpoint, and for the simple reason. For the last 24 years, we have been there, I've been there in the last 24 years in different capacities but we have actually educated, trained our people. We have had others who were stateless and were outside of the country who have come back. The amount of investments we have made to develop people and to develop skills and these different capacities that would even be required and the level of their participation, even in the politics of our country, is such that I'm comfortable that come the day when people decide that not only ... I don't even have to wait for that. And what we have gone through has been an issue of timing because it's like people said, no, give us more time. It wasn't like "stay there forever." They were understood it. And I think that's the way it is.

Ian Bremmer:

You met with my president just a few weeks ago, President Trump. Controversial on Africa. It was right after he made his comment about [expletive] hole countries. Did you ask him about that?

Paul Kagame:

In a way that is more civil than people would have expected. We naturally had to talk about that, but also with the background that it's as if no one is sure what was even said because people including himself, he was saying no, he was either misrepresented or actually they didn't hear it. Others heard it. I mean, I didn't find it correct that I would dwell on such. And as you said, Trump being the president of United States, I'm more interested in how Africa and United States can come together.

Ian Bremmer:

Did you come away with anything specific?

Paul Kagame:

Yes, because in fact, after that, the president wrote a letter to the African Union expressing how he wants to work with Africa and African leaders. And even mentioned my meeting with him in Davos, which [the] message for me was important enough to that he was reaching out and saying, I mean to work well with Africa, and I'm serious about it. And I thought, for me that is the most important thing.

Ian Bremmer:

And you said at the beginning of the interview that Africa's doing a lot more for itself, and that's a positive thing. Absolutely. But in part, that's also so necessary because there's been so little from everyone else.

Paul Kagame:

The less attention other parts of the world pay to Africa, the better for Africa because they have been paying [the] wrong attention. They've been paying attention to Africa as just a basket case, which is not correct. We will therefore on that basis work with different countries or parts of the world more as partners. I think this is what we were intended to see, more as partners. If it is China, work with China. China works with the United States, Europe works with China, everybody works with everybody. Every day we ask these questions, we say, oh, what is China doing in Africa? What do you think? As if there's something sinister going on.

Paul Kagame:

If there is, it's not China entirely to blame. I think even we, Africans should take the blame because why would you allow somebody to come and relate to you in a exploitative manner, doing wrong things and then taking more than they're bringing to you? I think it's not their... mainly, it's not themselves to blame alone. We ourselves will take responsibility for that. I think that is what is at the heart of the matter and the thinking we have in Africa to look at how we relate with the people in the rest of the world.

Ian Bremmer:

President Kagame, thank you very much. Great to see you again.

Paul Kagame:

Thank you. It was a real pleasure.

Announcer:

The GZERO World is brought to you by our founding sponsor, First Republic. First Republic, a private bank and wealth management company, places clients' needs first by providing responsive, relevant and customized solutions. Visit firstrepublic.com to learn more.