Podcast: Seeing the World Through Steve Bannon's Eyes

Transcript

Listen: Ian Bremmer sits down with former White House Chief Strategist, and 2016 Trump campaign architect, Steve Bannon to talk impeachment acquittal, the 2020 election, and why the U.S. should be much (much) more worried about China.

TRANSCRIPT: Seeing the World Through Steve Bannon's Eyes

Steve Bannon:

It is so bad, the misinformation that is given to the American people because the established order thinks it's the way it should be.

Ian Bremmer :

He is the former White House chief strategist to Donald Trump and former executive chairman of Breitbart News. Yes, I'm talking about Steve Bannon. Hello and welcome to the GZERO World Podcast, where you'll find extended versions of the interviews from my show on public television. Today I'll get into it with a man who not only had the president's ear, but who has since become a lead evangelist abroad for his own particular brand of nationalism. We'll talk about China, impeachment, populism, presidential politics, and why ancient Sparta may offer a clue or two into this White House. Obama was Athens. Let's get into it.

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Ian Bremmer :

Steve Bannon, good to be with you.

Steve Bannon:

Thanks for having me.

Ian Bremmer :

Last time you and I talked, we talked a fair amount about impeachment.

Steve Bannon:

Yes.

Ian Bremmer :

And you at that point said that Nancy Pelosi was teaching a masterclass.

Steve Bannon:

Yeah.

Ian Bremmer :

Now that it's almost concluded, how do you think she's done-

Steve Bannon:

See, I disagree with the president on this. I do think she has done this. And here's why. She realizes, I think, the Democratic field is so weak from a personality point of view. Now, there's no real star wattage. She also, I think, realizes the policies that the Democratic Party has been driven pretty far left on policies, so neither personality or policy can defeat Trump.

Ian Bremmer:

So you think she wants to run on impeachment?

Steve Bannon:

I think, not run on impeachment. What she wants to do is every day to try to destroy Trump. I mean, they've done a tremendous job of just hammering, hammering, hammering. That's why this week when the acquittal vote comes, it's just the curtain comes down on act one. They're going to continue to subpoena. They've already said, "Hey, this part of the impeachment may be done, but Ukraine's not done." They're going to continue, they're going to get Bolton up there. They're going to try to get Bolton's notes.

Ian Bremmer:

They'll try to get Bolton.

Steve Bannon:

Yeah. But I think the House is actually going to subpoena Bolton and then force the administration to go to court and fight over executive privilege. Separation of powers issues. So no, I think Nancy Pelosi, for what she had to play with-

Ian Bremmer :

To work with.

Steve Bannon:

... to work with, I think she's done a job of trying to tie up President Trump and the opportunity cost of focusing on other things. Now you can question, hey, was that in the best interest of the nation? But in their perspective, he's a clear and present danger. So she will pull out any stop. So I think from what she had to work with and what she's done, I think she's done a good job. Now, I think it's actually emboldened President Trump, and I think it's a strength in President Trump or particularly his base.

Ian Bremmer :

Because the polls will tell you that Trump has raised a lot of money, a lot more than the Dems have on the back of impeachment. And he certainly hasn't lost support across the country.

Steve Bannon:

Look, the polls are all over, but I think it generally shows that people dropped interest in the impeachment and he's marginally increased. I think it was a poll the other day at 50%. Finally approval. I think the Rasmussen's tracking poll-

Ian Bremmer :

He always does better in Rasmussen.

Steve Bannon:

Yeah. Rasmussen, yes.

Ian Bremmer :

But overall, it's in the 40s.

Steve Bannon:

And look, I think it was spread in the ABC poll, was at one time it was 49%, 46% to impeach and remove. Now, it's 48% to 46%. So it is in margin of error, but it hasn't swayed the American people one way or the other.

Ian Bremmer :

Do you think the Republicans would've been better advised to have actually supported a trial with witnesses? One that was seen as-

Steve Bannon:

I advocated from the very beginning, a long trial with a lot... Let them have Bolton, let them have Mulvaney, let them have Pompeo. Get all the OMB guys, get the emails, get them all in.

Ian Bremmer :

Get them all in.

Steve Bannon:

Get them all in and let's-

Ian Bremmer :

Because nothing new is really going to come out, from your perspective.

Steve Bannon:

If all you're going to get is Maggie Haberman in the New York Times weaponizing leaks where they get one side out, let's get these guys and cross examine them. But in doing that, let's get the whistleblower. Let's get Shift as a fact witness. Let's get, I think, Brennan. Let's get the security apparatus. Let's get Rosenstein up there as a witness.

Ian Bremmer :

Rod Rosenstein?

Steve Bannon:

Yeah, with the 40 subpoenas.

Ian Bremmer :

You're not suggesting Biden though.

Steve Bannon:

I don't think we need Joe Biden, put Hunter Biden up. But even the Bidens I think are kind of marginal to the... My point is that Trump... I call it the trial of the century. He calls it the crime of the century, that it is about a coup to stop a president. So I want all the issues that came up when Devin Nunes had the House intelligence, all those subpoenas. Some of them ought to be classified. Rosenstein ought to come up as a witness. I think we're got to get into that. The Bidens to me are just crony capitalism. It'd be interesting to have them up there.

Ian Bremmer :

But you were worried at the beginning. You thought that there was a real possibility that the Republicans might actually, in Senate, convict Trump. You didn't think it was a majority, likely-

Steve Bannon:

No.

Ian Bremmer :

But you thought it was plausible.

Steve Bannon:

Not convict. What I said is that this'll be a conditional acquittal. That to get the acquittal vote, he would have to give up certain things.

Ian Bremmer :

Which he hasn't at all.

Steve Bannon:

Well, you could argue people on the harder side of Trump nation, will say that the neocon move in Iran, the phase one on China. You remember the China hawks-

Ian Bremmer :

He wanted that anyway. He wanted that anyway.

Steve Bannon:

Well, he did, but people will say, "Hey, we should-"

Ian Bremmer :

But you can't argue he gave anything up in this acquittal. This was a win from his perspective.

Steve Bannon:

I think it's definitely a win for Trump. Look, history books are going to show he was acquitted. So I think it turned out very well. Now we'll have to see what the price of this is going forward, but I think he performed very well and number one of the reasons is I think he convinced the Republican parties in the House. Remember when we talked before, it hadn't been the vote. Those 20 that were leaving all voted, right, not to go forward.

Ian Bremmer :

That's right.

Steve Bannon:

And the 20 that stayed didn't like him. So of those 40 he solidified through unity and substance, not one person to leave. And I think that actually got the Senate's focus.

Ian Bremmer :

You said that there are no wattage, no star power on the Democratic side, no Obama, and Obama's not saying very much on the sidelines until now.

Steve Bannon:

Well, why did you have AOC, who by the way, Bernie's surge has come since that time, Bernie's been in the Senate on trial and she's been the surrogate out there.

Ian Bremmer :

She's been out there in Iowa. She's done quite well.

Steve Bannon:

Bernie is her third term. It just happens to be the first. So she's the star power, but obviously she's not eligible for the presidency. Everybody else besides that is no star power.

Ian Bremmer :

Now, but if you were forced to actually vote for one of the people that were out here, who'd it be? On the Dems side?

Steve Bannon:

I just think they're too well.

Ian Bremmer :

I get you.

Steve Bannon:

It'd be Tulsi Gabbard.

Ian Bremmer :

You'd say Tulsi.

Steve Bannon:

Tulsi.

Ian Bremmer :

Now, the Trump guys like Tulsi Gabbard. They come out for her.

Steve Bannon:

Tulsi guys love her.

Ian Bremmer :

Why is that?

Steve Bannon:

Because she's America... Essentially, I know Tulsi-

Ian Bremmer :

They're into surfing.

Steve Bannon:

Tulsi Gabbard's campaign is going to love the fact that I said I would vote for her. But no, she represents 'America First' national security policy. She's very populist on her economics. She's an American nationalist when it comes to the way she puts the country first on international affairs. And also she may be even more of a little bit isolationist, which is to the kind of really hardcore of the Trump side, and I think on both economic policy and on foreign policy, she's very Trump-ian.

Ian Bremmer :

She's like, let Assad habit, why the hell are we in there to begin with? I mean much more so than anybody else for example.

Steve Bannon:

Look, we did have her up and talk to her about joining the administration in the very early days. That's how impressive she was. And I think you find people-

Ian Bremmer :

Did she express any interest in that?

Steve Bannon:

Well, she expressed interest in listening. She wanted to come up and see what... She has very strong ideas on national security and foreign policy, and she thought if there was opportunities at the senior level in the State Department or at the UN or in the Defense Department, I think she would've been quite interested. Now, it just didn't turn out to work out. It doesn't mean... But that's the caliber of person she is.

Ian Bremmer :

Now when she leaves, when she-

Steve Bannon:

In New Hampshire, most people are saying... If you look at the crowd she's drawn in New Hampshire, a lot of those are Trump voters from 2016.

Ian Bremmer :

When she drops out of the presidential campaign, whether it's in a couple of weeks or it's a couple of months, what do you think the likelihood is that she eventually campaigns, endorses Trump and not the Democratic nominee?

Steve Bannon:

I don't know, but I don't know what her long-term thoughts are about the Democratic Party. Is there room for a populist nationalist in the Democratic Party that has these kind of national security ideas that are different than the mainstream national security apparatus of the Democratic Party? I think she has to think about that.

Ian Bremmer :

And you don't think Bernie Sanders is that?

Steve Bannon:

I think Bernie Sanders, as far as commander in chief, lacks maturity, lacks understanding. He doesn't really understand China. He's already said he doesn't agree with the nation's longstanding policy on nuclear weapons. I think as commander in chief, he's going to be really challenged. And I think if he's the nominee, it's going to come back to haunt the Democratic Party.

Ian Bremmer :

But as an economic populist and an isolationist on the international stage, he does embrace more of that than almost anyone else on that side.

Steve Bannon:

Remember a lot of the Trump movement, 50/50 is not isolationist. So we do have a isolationist aspect of it, that's no doubt. Just like the left has. Most of it is what President Trump's trying to say is 'America First' means America, engage with allies, not protectorates.

Steve Bannon:

We get away from kind of this imperial foreign policy we've had where NATOs are protectorate, the Gulf Emirates are a protectorate, the electoral nations around the South China Sea are protectorate, Northwest Pacific. So you get that they're really allies and I think that Bernie's isolationism, I don't think, plays with the American people as a much stronger.. look, the left, clearly the populist left, I think, and if you listen to Tucker Carlson every night, looks at many of the issues that we look at. We just come up with different solutions. So I think that that's why it's a lot of, whether it's Elizabeth Warren or Bernie, the problem is that Bernie and these guys have gone so far to the left as far as socialism and socialistic policies. And I really say that if you look at it, the underpinnings of that is kind of modern monetary theory. The basics of a lot of their policies is kind of a rethinking of how we even think about money.

Ian Bremmer :

Now, is it right for Trump from an electoral strategy to just paint everyone as a socialist on the Democratic side?

Steve Bannon:

Well, he doesn't paint the centrist. He doesn't paint-

Ian Bremmer :

He doesn't say much about Biden, to be fair.

Steve Bannon:

Well, what he says is about Biden's performances. Biden's policies are quite good. He's a globalist. I mean, he's back to Hillary Clinton, the neoliberal, kind of neocon mentality of the central apparatus of the Democratic Party, the corporatists and the Wall Street financiers that really have owned the Democratic Party for so long in the Clinton years. That's that neoliberalism. So I don't think he's seen President Trump even with Bloomberg, where Bloomberg is the new specter that haunts it today. But I think he's rightly said, and this is why I think that they've gone so far to the left where they could have been a very viable, they've gone so far to the left in some of these economic policies, it's going to be quite difficult to win a general election. This is going to be a very tough campaign. Bloomberg's money is really going to change the dynamic in American politics.

Ian Bremmer :

Bloomberg even supporting Sanders if he gets the nomination.

Steve Bannon:

Yes.

Ian Bremmer :

That's what he said.

Steve Bannon:

With $2 billion. Remember, all the pictures you see-

Ian Bremmer :

That's smart for Bloomberg to do strategically, right? I mean, that's their shot of winning.

Steve Bannon:

Michael Bloomberg knows there's very low probability he could be president of the United States. Okay?

Ian Bremmer :

Yes, right.

Steve Bannon:

But he-

Ian Bremmer :

Requires a brokered convention, basically.

Steve Bannon:

He's looking for something bigger than that. He's going to do a leverage buyout of the Democratic Party. He's going to put $2 billion or more. Forbes had said the other day, he's worth $71 billion. Right? When this started, he was worth like 58. Okay, so he's going to put unlimited amount of money to work to defeat Trump. But he's going to let off a money thermonuclear weapon on Super Tuesday that's going to shatter this primary, and you're going to have a brokered convention. And Hillary Clinton is sitting there waiting for the call to come in and save the Democratic Party. Biden's not going to do it, Mayor Pete's not going to do it.

Ian Bremmer :

If Sanders were to get the nomination, would the right strategy for Trump be to go after Sanders as a socialist, or would the right strategy be to go after Sanders and Bloomberg as globalists that are bought by the big money?

Steve Bannon:

He definitely should go after the oligarch that wants to be the overlord of the Democratic Party and the White House, which is Michael Bloomberg. And whatever instrument they put up, if it's Bernie Sanders, it's going to be some kind of crazy left wing socialism. If it's a centrist like Hillary Clinton, which I think eventually it will be, because they'll see her as the most controllable and safest bet to take on Trump with Bloomberg's money. And by the way, $2 billion is just the opening bid. He could put $5 billion.

Ian Bremmer :

I still think you're completely nuts on this idea that Hillary Clinton is getting back in.

Steve Bannon:

I just know they're going to be looking for a savior, and Joe Biden, he's not going to be... Right now, he's like the character in El Cid, right? He's this guy they've strapped to the saddle and they hope they can get through the primaries.

Ian Bremmer :

Are you just saying Hillary,-

Steve Bannon:

I think that is-

Ian Bremmer :

...because just want to get a rile out of people? Is that what it is? You want her to just bite and say something.

Steve Bannon:

As Hillary Clinton will say, "Look, President Trump-"

Ian Bremmer :

I think this is a counterinsurgency, fake news branding thing. This is what you did at Breitbart, is that what you're trying to do?

Steve Bannon:

Counter-intel.

Ian Bremmer :

This is counterinsurgency, right?

Steve Bannon:

Counter-intel.

Ian Bremmer :

That's what it is, right? Admit it. Admit it.

Steve Bannon:

No, no.

Ian Bremmer :

This is what you're good at. I know it.

Steve Bannon:

She's fantasy-

Ian Bremmer :

Do you like the fact that fake news has become such a big deal in this country?

Steve Bannon:

You know what's so amazing?

Ian Bremmer :

Do you like it? Do you like it?

Steve Bannon:

Hang on.

Ian Bremmer :

Vladimir Putin says this, right? That there is no system issue.

Steve Bannon:

The mainstream media put themselves into this situation. The country's been in decline for 20 or 30 years. The rise of China. Where did you see that? Outside of guys like you every now and again talking about it, experts, where did you see anybody talking about the rise of China? We've had the worst 15 or 20 years by both by Bush and Obama. Okay. The decline of the United States. Look at the Afghan Papers. You want to talk about fake news? You show me where the outrage is about the Afghanistan Papers. Show me the outrage in the... And you know why the mainstream media won't talk about it? Because they're complicit and that's why they want to walk away from it. So don't talk to me about some blogger and fake news. It's total bullshit.

Ian Bremmer :

I'm not talking about that, what I'm talking-

Steve Bannon:

You are talking, no, you're talking about some marginality. You won't get to the heart of it. Get to the heart of it. The heart of it is that the media's different than they were in the '70s when they held the government accountable. Now, they're in partnership with it. The permanent political clash, you saw this in the impeachment. Every night cheerleading, you know the Russia thing, this bing, ba-bang. They are on the side of the permanent apparatus, and that's what the American people on the left and on the right are rejecting.

Ian Bremmer :

Do we need a BBC in the United States?

Steve Bannon:

Good God, no. Why do we need-

Ian Bremmer :

What do we need?

Steve Bannon:

BBC? Have you lost your mind? Look how bad they've been on Brexit. They're terrible. There's plenty of good sources out there. You just got to find them. There's capital guys starting up. You just got to find it. American people, number one. It's also upon the American people who have responsibility of citizenship. This is why I love the AOC's of the world. I love the fact she's doing her nightly cooking show and talking about civics. The kids who don't get civics lessons anymore.

Ian Bremmer :

On Instagram, yeah.

Steve Bannon:

I don't dig her policies. I like her, and here's what I like the most about her, she's a bartender. She's not some stiff lawyer we got too many of. She's somebody that worked for $8.50 an hour on the midnight shift. She knows how bad it is and how tough it is to have to pay rent. And now she's giving civics lessons. Disagree with the policies, I like the approach. The Republicans and the populists need more of that. We need fewer lawyers. But you want to talk about the fake news? It is so bad, the misinformation that is given to the American people because the established order thinks it's the way it should be.

Ian Bremmer :

Now, so let's pivot to the global and maybe the easy way to do that, a lot of people at Davos this year are pretty aligned with a lot of the policies that Trump is on about, certainly in terms of trade, they're happier than they were a couple of years ago. In terms-

Steve Bannon:

But I think that's people coming towards Trump. Remember, when he first started with these tariffs and even the concept of tariffs, it's a complete apostate, right? It was looked at as against the orthodoxy. You sit there today and people realize that his trade policies are starting to work. I think Bank of America, one of their analytics groups that studies industrial corporations that represent, I think, $15 or $20 trillion of market cap, said that you can see a tectonic plate shift, that people are starting to look to move supply chains out of China and start to move supply chains, maybe start in East Asia, but they're looking at... And they don't call it nationalism. They call it localism, where you're going to have more local nodes in this global supply chain.

Ian Bremmer :

In part because labor, well, Chinese labor's more expensive than it was, and also because labor's not as much of a piece of the manufacturing equation. So if that's true, you're going to be close to where the customers are.

Steve Bannon:

I actually think, and it was such a good line that you used, I stole it, so I use it as homage. I think one of the most important parts of this is where you said a while ago, the most important geopolitical event of 2019, where the Chinese [were] announcing they were going to go through their own-

Ian Bremmer :

Technological system.

Steve Bannon:

...own technological system and requirements. That is a fundamental outlook of how the CCPC is really decoupling, and I think the corporations understood that we've got to mitigate our risk here. I think I'm a little more hardcore than President Trump, because President Trump sometimes is more practical and more pragmatic.

Ian Bremmer :

You didn't want the 'phase one' trade deal.

Steve Bannon:

No.

Ian Bremmer :

You didn't want it at all.

Steve Bannon:

No.

Ian Bremmer :

You think the Chinese are only going to get stronger. We need to hit them hard now when we have more of an event. That's your general view.

Steve Bannon:

I think the Chinese Communist party is the same type of gangsters that ran the Soviet Union, the same type of gangsters that ran Italy, and ran Nazi Germany, and ran Imperial Japan. I think they're just another set of gangsters, and they lie about everything. They lied about the Hong Kong deal. They lied about the deal they signed with President Obama on cyber security and the militarization of South China Sea. They lied about the Paris Accord. President Trump, I think, put together the best deal that you could have at the time, given the reality on the ground. We would have to see how it works.

Ian Bremmer :

You believe that there's a cold war between the US and China right now?

Steve Bannon:

I do not. I think the Chinese describe as three types of war by unrestricted warfare, information/cyber, economic and kinetic. I think there's a hot war on both information/cyber and economics. I think they've been at war with us for 20 years. That's why I kept saying this, that deal, this is all an armistice. It's not a trade deal. It's really an armistice in an economic war. That armistice would've been an armistice that could have brought us peace and prosperity and working together into one system.

Ian Bremmer :

On those three story... Yeah.

Steve Bannon:

Yeah, but into one entire system, including the technology. It's the Chinese made a conscious decision in the spring of 2019 that, "We're going to go a different way. These two systems cannot work together. We have a way we roll. The industrial West, not just the United States has a way they roll."

Ian Bremmer :

So let's talk about the thing that's most concerning people about China right now, which is coronavirus emanating from Wuhan. Clearly, the Chinese government didn't handle this well to begin with. Crack down information-

Steve Bannon:

You're being much too charitable.

Ian Bremmer :

Well, I mean-

Steve Bannon:

They knew about this in December and they knew about this through the what? We now know the cab drivers-

Ian Bremmer :

There were eight doctors on the ground.

Steve Bannon:

Eight doctors who were arrested, essentially. Right.

Ian Bremmer :

They refused to allow them to go publicly-

Steve Bannon:

Also, the cab drivers in WhatsApp, WeChat-

Ian Bremmer :

What's the correct American response to a potential pandemic, an outbreak right now more serious than SARS was, given the level of interlinkage that our countries, our people, our economies have? What should Trump be doing?

Steve Bannon:

I think the first step is what he did. In a complex system, I think you have to mitigate risk, a little bit maybe overreact immediately so you don't have to have Draconian measures later on. Dr. Gabriel, I think it's Leung, in Hong Kong, who's the great virus fighter, who was the individual who helped put down SARS. He's been saying for weeks. I mean, he's one of the ones that advocates Hong Kong close the border. He's been saying for weeks what's happening in Wuhan, the scale of it has never happened before in human history as far as the quarantine goes, and that the Chinese government, CCP, even if they were well-intentioned trying to do it, it'll be beyond them to try to quarantine this.

Steve Bannon:

So we have to start taking very tough measures today. I think what President Trump's doing, I think you're seeing this, number one, offer the CDC and other great organizations throughout the world to go and assist the Chinese Communist Party. To go assist. What we should do now, I think, is try to make sure we limit it to China as much as possible. Number two, remember the victims here are the Chinese people. Whether we need to do fundraisers here or relief funds, et cetera, is to think about how you get, because now you see the breakdown of their logistics system.

Ian Bremmer :

Because Trump's first orientation usually is not towards how do we raise humanitarian aid for people that aren't in the United States? I mean even Puerto Rico, which is a part of the United States, he was criticized for the lack of support.

Steve Bannon:

I disagree. Look what he did for the first two weeks of this with Xi. He was saying that Xi's back. Xi tells me he has this under control. We'll work with the Chinese. Remember these tweets are out there saying, "Hey, Xi tells me it's under control. We will support it. People shouldn't raise their level of concern." But when it became evident that Xi doesn't have control of this, that's when I think the president stepped forward with very, very measured response. Remember, right now what you're hearing coming out of Wuhan is literally a breakdown of the public health infrastructure.

Ian Bremmer :

I hear from you a lot. The idea that if we want to do this effectively, it's not just the Americans. We need our allies too. Whether it's talking about responding to the pandemic crisis or it's talking about Chinese cyber or trade, we need the Japanese, we need the South Koreans. We need the Europeans. One of the things I see that is happening over the last few years is that Trump administration's 'America First' policy is making it harder for those other allies to feel like the US is engaging with them, that they should want to cooperate with, participate with the United States in dealing with the Chinese, the bigger threat. I understand that you say-

Steve Bannon:

I disagree with that totally, but I see your point.

Ian Bremmer :

Can I say that? Let's talk about both those things.

Steve Bannon:

Listen, this is the whole thing that got me about when you said the separation of the two technology systems. I said, we kind of need a NATO of technology so that Japan, South Korea, Western Europe, and the United States come together at least on agreement because we're not totally in sync with the Europeans right now.

Ian Bremmer :

We're not even close.

Steve Bannon:

But that has to happen. But here's what I think [about] the Trump administration, and remember, let's talk about reality, not fantasy, okay? NATO in Western Europe had become a protectorate of the United States. It was NATO and the countries of NATO that came up with, we need to get to 2% of our GDP, right?

Ian Bremmer :

Correct.

Steve Bannon:

Because we can't defend ourselves. The alliance hadn't become an alliance. The countries in Europe, and particularly the worst offender was Germany. They were putting really no resources into equipment, into operability and into training.

Ian Bremmer :

They were spending about half of what their commitments were.

Steve Bannon:

And what Trump's said, and by the way, it's the general secretary of NATO that says Trump's done more to strengthen the alliance than any president he's ever seen because he said, "Hey, we're here committed. The United States is putting more resources in." Okay? 'America First,' many of us are veterans that have kids in the military today. We're not isolationist to say "Come home." We say we don't want America to be the policeman of the world, but we want to be in partnership where it's in the vital national security of Western Europe for NATO or the Gulf Emirates or around the South China Sea or Northwest Pacific. Yes, those allies have skin in the game with their kids and their money.

Ian Bremmer :

Now, the United Kingdom, Boris Johnson, I mean you don't hate, right? Is actually not supporting the United States on 5G with Huawei.

Steve Bannon:

Let's talk about that.

Ian Bremmer :

I'll ask about that.

Steve Bannon:

Let's talk about the board of advisors of Huawei, this goes to the rot. Remember Nigel Farage is my guy over there. Boris Johnson think he's done an excellent job and got it home. But let's talk about Huawei. You look at the rot in the British establishment, Tony Blair and all the former prime ministers they have on the board, all the guys in the House of Lords making money off the Chinese, and Huawei, and British Telecom. They're the ones that have gotten this Huawei situation where it is. They're in a very tough situation how they even unwind it, how in bed they are, and why are they in bed? They're bought and paid for. This is an outrage-

Ian Bremmer :

So what should we do to the UK if they refuse to take our fairly strong advice on leaving Huawei's side and working with the Americans and the Europeans?

Steve Bannon:

I think it's going to be very dramatic.

Ian Bremmer :

Which the British specifically-

Steve Bannon:

I think look, this could be the beginning of not being in the Five Eye program of not sharing intelligence information. Huawei is not associated with the Chinese government. Huawei is the technology arm of the PLA, okay?

Ian Bremmer :

People's Liberation Army.

Steve Bannon:

And the British understand this. The British aristocracy, the British establishment that's in bed with the CCP, that has to be highlighted. Pompeo goes over the other day and says the CCP-

Ian Bremmer :

So is this the-

Steve Bannon:

He says the CCP-

Ian Bremmer :

Is this is the equivalent of German, like former Chancellor Schroeder with Transneft and the Russians. Is it that level of depth and corruption, what we're seeing with the UK and Huawei right now?

Steve Bannon:

I don't know if it's that level of depth and corruption. They're clearly advisors on the board. Back then, I actually think it went to kickbacks. I'm not saying it has anything to do with kickbacks, but clearly they have a whole series of advisors that are advising them and taking on board memberships and taking money. That has to stop. Mike Pompeo goes over and lays out the administration's point. Pompeo says, number one, the CCP is the existential threat to not just the United States-

Ian Bremmer :

To the world, he said that.

Steve Bannon:

To the entire west and the world. And he said, this is going to have major ramifications including on the intelligence sharing side. So I think we've got very tough conversations. And the British want to know, and we've supported them obviously in Brexit and with doing a trade deal with them, but this is going to have big time implications.

Ian Bremmer :

Nigel Farage is your guy, and obviously he's been the no compromise, Brexit no matter what. Why? I mean, I know you're going to disagree with this, but why don't we want a stronger-

Steve Bannon:

Am I that...Did I telegraph it that badly?

Ian Bremmer :

Why don't we want a stronger Europe allied with the United States that supports the rule of law?

Steve Bannon:

We do.

Ian Bremmer :

A stronger European Union, why do we want that?

Steve Bannon:

That's two different things.

Ian Bremmer :

I know.

Steve Bannon:

A union of nations, of strong independent nations, the Westphalian system has worked pretty well for the West, okay? That's what we're talking about. A robust France under Le Pen, a robust Italy under Salvini that are great allies of the West and great allies of the United States. Independence, a Europe of nations, not a United States of Europe, okay? Because the people in Europe don't even want that. That's where you're seeing the populist, nationalist movement grow every day, and that's what the United Kingdom is.

Ian Bremmer :

Now, polite society establishment probably is most irritated with you in terms of your alignment with these populists in Europe, right? I mean, the Le Pens, the Orbáns.

Steve Bannon:

I think they're most upset about my alignment with Donald Trump, but the second is the-

Ian Bremmer :

Well, I say-

Steve Bannon:

Because they say, they think Trump's the font of all evil.

Ian Bremmer :

Maybe, but it's still, Trump also gets support of half of the country. And support, I mean, mainstream media in the United States, Fox's mainstream media certainly supports Trump. Where in the case of Le Pen, Salvini, Orbán, I mean, these are people that are sort of considered beyond the pale.

Steve Bannon:

Let's look at our great presidents. Look at Lincoln, look at FDR, look at Reagan. They all look at... At the time that they're there, they're entirely divisive. Lincoln was a minority president, okay? Fought against his own generals to win the Civil War. Almost had a coup against him by his high command before Antietam and the Emancipation Proclamation. Look at FDR, all he had to go through in fighting and winning World War II and actually making sure we were ready for World War II. It vilified, called the devil. Look at Reagan. You remember Reagan, in hindsight was terrific.

Ian Bremmer :

I was alive during Reagan. Unlike those other presidents. Yes.

Steve Bannon:

They say there are demonstrations here. I said, hey, there were 2 million people in Central Park saying Reagan was a demon for trying to put tactical nuclear weapons into Western Germany. All of those individuals, not just when they were running for office, when they had office, look at Churchill, were the most divisive characters of their age. Only in hindsight do they look like they unified. You know why? Because they took the country to another level.

Ian Bremmer :

I'm talking about the fact that there are lots of people that live in these countries that are not well-to-do. They're immigrants. They talk differently. They look differently.

Steve Bannon:

A lot of people in the United States of America, I think we're pretty divided today.

Ian Bremmer :

We are.

Steve Bannon:

I think that's healthy. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think we're a mature nation and we'd like political fights. We've changed the dynamic in this country. Populist on the left and populous on the right, and it's a healthy thing.

Ian Bremmer :

Steve Bannon-

Steve Bannon:

Thanks.

Ian Bremmer :

...good to see you.

Ian Bremmer :

That's it for the podcast this week. We'll be back in your feed next week. Check out full episodes of GZERO World on public television, or at gzeromedia.com.

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